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Re: Photoshop Elements sale: $59 Aug 28 only

 
 
tony cooper
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Posts: n/a
 
      08-30-2012
On Wed, 29 Aug 2012 16:03:23 -0700, Savageduck
<savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:

>On 2012-08-29 15:46:38 -0700, "Russell D." <(E-Mail Removed)> said:
>
>> On 08/28/2012 05:43 PM, Alan Browne wrote:
>>> I received an advert via e-mail that Elements 10 is $40 off.
>>>
>>> Code is: ELEMENTSDEAL (online or call center).
>>>
>>> US and Canada (except Quebec for reasons that escape me).
>>>
>>> Sorry this is so late - just opened my mail;
>>>

>>
>> GIMP is still free.

>
>Free, and after making the comparison with PS, it still sits unused on
>my computer.
>GIMP does a reasonable job for those who deny the functionality of
>CS5/6, or those who insist of "free". You do get what you pay for.
>After making the basic comparison and saying that they are both capable
>of editing and adjusting image files, there is no contest. CS3/4/5/6
>are all far superior to GIMP.
>
>...but GIMP is "free".


I don't know how you can really compare Photoshop with GIMP. It's
horses for courses.

Anyone who has used both will tell you that GIMP is extremely limited
compared to Photoshop, but that's only a problem if you want to go
beyond the basic edits. Even GIMP is over-kill for some people.

Photoshop only becomes superior to GIMP when the user wants to
progress to more than GIMP can do. I think that if some malware went
out to all Photoshop users that crippled every function in Photoshop
that is not present in GIMP, that 90-some percent of the users would
be able to do exactly what they're doing now. (Professionals
excluded)

The same can be said for dslrs. Sneak in and superglue the cameras to
the AUTO setting and a majority of users would be producing the same
output they were when using A,S,P, and M...if they ever did.

--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
 
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tony cooper
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Posts: n/a
 
      08-30-2012
On Wed, 29 Aug 2012 18:29:36 -0700, Savageduck
<savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:

>On 2012-08-29 18:10:35 -0700, tony cooper <(E-Mail Removed)> said:
>
>> On Wed, 29 Aug 2012 16:03:23 -0700, Savageduck
>> <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2012-08-29 15:46:38 -0700, "Russell D." <(E-Mail Removed)> said:
>>>
>>>> On 08/28/2012 05:43 PM, Alan Browne wrote:
>>>>> I received an advert via e-mail that Elements 10 is $40 off.
>>>>>
>>>>> Code is: ELEMENTSDEAL (online or call center).
>>>>>
>>>>> US and Canada (except Quebec for reasons that escape me).
>>>>>
>>>>> Sorry this is so late - just opened my mail;
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> GIMP is still free.
>>>
>>> Free, and after making the comparison with PS, it still sits unused on
>>> my computer.
>>> GIMP does a reasonable job for those who deny the functionality of
>>> CS5/6, or those who insist of "free". You do get what you pay for.
>>> After making the basic comparison and saying that they are both capable
>>> of editing and adjusting image files, there is no contest. CS3/4/5/6
>>> are all far superior to GIMP.
>>>
>>> ...but GIMP is "free".

>>
>> I don't know how you can really compare Photoshop with GIMP.

>
>You can't.
>
>> It's horses for courses.

>
>Yup!
>
>> Anyone who has used both will tell you that GIMP is extremely limited
>> compared to Photoshop, but that's only a problem if you want to go
>> beyond the basic edits. Even GIMP is over-kill for some people.

>
>Undoubtably.
>
>> Photoshop only becomes superior to GIMP when the user wants to
>> progress to more than GIMP can do.

>
>No. It has always been superior. The tools have been there regardless
>of the user's ability to deal with the program.


That's true, but I think you're ignoring the meaning here. If the
user isn't aware of what the tool can do, and doesn't get training on
the use of the tool, it's as if the tool isn't there.

>> I think that if some malware went
>> out to all Photoshop users that crippled every function in Photoshop
>> that is not present in GIMP, that 90-some percent of the users would
>> be able to do exactly what they're doing now. (Professionals
>> excluded)
>>
>> The same can be said for dslrs. Sneak in and superglue the cameras to
>> the AUTO setting and a majority of users would be producing the same
>> output they were when using A,S,P, and M...if they ever did.

>
>Unlikely what ifs.
>
>I thought you might have got my point.


I'm not talking about you, Duck. You're in the 10% because you
understand and use the tools in Photoshop.

>I have made my attempt at GIMP and found it lacking for me. Others
>might find it adequate, but those who tout it as a PS replacement are
>delusional. There is no comparison.


It's a replacement for the people who use just the tools in Photoshop
that are present in GIMP. There are an awful lot of people in that
group. That's my point.

>...but it can edit and adjust image files, and most importantly for
>many, it is free, and open source for the Linux crowd.
>
>...and the last time I used "Auto" on a DSLR was the first week I had
>my D70 some time in 2004.


Again, this isn't about you.

--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
 
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PeterN
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Posts: n/a
 
      08-30-2012
On 8/29/2012 10:59 PM, Savageduck wrote:
> On 2012-08-29 19:16:00 -0700, tony cooper <(E-Mail Removed)> said:
>
>> On Wed, 29 Aug 2012 18:29:36 -0700, Savageduck
>> <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2012-08-29 18:10:35 -0700, tony cooper <(E-Mail Removed)>
>>> said:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, 29 Aug 2012 16:03:23 -0700, Savageduck
>>>> <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 2012-08-29 15:46:38 -0700, "Russell D." <(E-Mail Removed)> said:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 08/28/2012 05:43 PM, Alan Browne wrote:
>>>>>>> I received an advert via e-mail that Elements 10 is $40 off.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Code is: ELEMENTSDEAL (online or call center).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> US and Canada (except Quebec for reasons that escape me).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sorry this is so late - just opened my mail;
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> GIMP is still free.
>>>>>
>>>>> Free, and after making the comparison with PS, it still sits unused on
>>>>> my computer.
>>>>> GIMP does a reasonable job for those who deny the functionality of
>>>>> CS5/6, or those who insist of "free". You do get what you pay for.
>>>>> After making the basic comparison and saying that they are both
>>>>> capable
>>>>> of editing and adjusting image files, there is no contest. CS3/4/5/6
>>>>> are all far superior to GIMP.
>>>>>
>>>>> ...but GIMP is "free".
>>>>
>>>> I don't know how you can really compare Photoshop with GIMP.
>>>
>>> You can't.
>>>
>>>> It's horses for courses.
>>>
>>> Yup!
>>>
>>>> Anyone who has used both will tell you that GIMP is extremely limited
>>>> compared to Photoshop, but that's only a problem if you want to go
>>>> beyond the basic edits. Even GIMP is over-kill for some people.
>>>
>>> Undoubtably.
>>>
>>>> Photoshop only becomes superior to GIMP when the user wants to
>>>> progress to more than GIMP can do.
>>>
>>> No. It has always been superior. The tools have been there regardless
>>> of the user's ability to deal with the program.

>>
>> That's true, but I think you're ignoring the meaning here. If the
>> user isn't aware of what the tool can do, and doesn't get training on
>> the use of the tool, it's as if the tool isn't there.
>>
>>>> I think that if some malware went
>>>> out to all Photoshop users that crippled every function in Photoshop
>>>> that is not present in GIMP, that 90-some percent of the users would
>>>> be able to do exactly what they're doing now. (Professionals
>>>> excluded)
>>>>
>>>> The same can be said for dslrs. Sneak in and superglue the cameras to
>>>> the AUTO setting and a majority of users would be producing the same
>>>> output they were when using A,S,P, and M...if they ever did.
>>>
>>> Unlikely what ifs.
>>>
>>> I thought you might have got my point.

>>
>> I'm not talking about you, Duck. You're in the 10% because you
>> understand and use the tools in Photoshop.
>>
>>> I have made my attempt at GIMP and found it lacking for me. Others
>>> might find it adequate, but those who tout it as a PS replacement are
>>> delusional. There is no comparison.

>>
>> It's a replacement for the people who use just the tools in Photoshop
>> that are present in GIMP. There are an awful lot of people in that
>> group. That's my point.
>>
>>> ...but it can edit and adjust image files, and most importantly for
>>> many, it is free, and open source for the Linux crowd.
>>>
>>> ...and the last time I used "Auto" on a DSLR was the first week I had
>>> my D70 some time in 2004.

>>
>> Again, this isn't about you.

>
> OK! OK! I get it. I was just pushing the envelope a little bit.
>
> Of course my D300S doesn't have an "Auto" mode, Just "P", "A", "S", &
> "M", and those are selected via the rear command wheel.
>
> ....and not one "scene" mode to be found anywhere.
>


Uhm! Why isn't P, with auto WB the same as an auto mode?


--
Peter
 
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otter
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      08-30-2012
On Aug 29, 10:31*pm, PeterN <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> On 8/29/2012 10:59 PM, Savageduck wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 2012-08-29 19:16:00 -0700, tony cooper <(E-Mail Removed)> said:

>
> >> On Wed, 29 Aug 2012 18:29:36 -0700, Savageduck
> >> <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:

>
> >>> On 2012-08-29 18:10:35 -0700, tony cooper <(E-Mail Removed)>
> >>> said:

>
> >>>> On Wed, 29 Aug 2012 16:03:23 -0700, Savageduck
> >>>> <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:

>
> >>>>> On 2012-08-29 15:46:38 -0700, "Russell D." <(E-Mail Removed)> said:

>
> >>>>>> On 08/28/2012 05:43 PM, Alan Browne wrote:
> >>>>>>> I received an advert via e-mail that Elements 10 is $40 off.

>
> >>>>>>> Code is: ELEMENTSDEAL (online or call center).

>
> >>>>>>> US and Canada (except Quebec for reasons that escape me).

>
> >>>>>>> Sorry this is so late - just opened my mail;

>
> >>>>>> GIMP is still free.

>
> >>>>> Free, and after making the comparison with PS, it still sits unusedon
> >>>>> my computer.
> >>>>> GIMP does a reasonable job for those who deny the functionality of
> >>>>> CS5/6, or those who insist of "free". You do get what you pay for.
> >>>>> After making the basic comparison and saying that they are both
> >>>>> capable
> >>>>> of editing and adjusting image files, there is no contest. CS3/4/5/6
> >>>>> are all far superior to GIMP.

>
> >>>>> ...but GIMP is "free".

>
> >>>> I don't know how you can really compare Photoshop with GIMP.

>
> >>> You can't.

>
> >>>> It's horses for courses.

>
> >>> Yup!

>
> >>>> Anyone who has used both will tell you that GIMP is extremely limited
> >>>> compared to Photoshop, but that's only a problem if you want to go
> >>>> beyond the basic edits. *Even GIMP is over-kill for some people.

>
> >>> Undoubtably.

>
> >>>> Photoshop only becomes superior to GIMP when the user wants to
> >>>> progress to more than GIMP can do.

>
> >>> No. It has always been superior. The tools have been there regardless
> >>> of the user's ability to deal with the program.

>
> >> That's true, but I think you're ignoring the meaning here. *If the
> >> user isn't aware of what the tool can do, and doesn't get training on
> >> the use of the tool, it's as if the tool isn't there.

>
> >>>> I think that if some malware went
> >>>> out to all Photoshop users that crippled every function in Photoshop
> >>>> that is not present in GIMP, that 90-some percent of the users would
> >>>> be able to do exactly what they're doing now. *(Professionals
> >>>> excluded)

>
> >>>> The same can be said for dslrs. *Sneak in and superglue the cameras to
> >>>> the AUTO setting and a majority of users would be producing the same
> >>>> output they were when using A,S,P, and M...if they ever did.

>
> >>> Unlikely what ifs.

>
> >>> I thought you might have got my point.

>
> >> I'm not talking about you, Duck. *You're in the 10% because you
> >> understand and use the tools in Photoshop.

>
> >>> I have made my attempt at GIMP and found it lacking for me. Others
> >>> might find it adequate, but those who tout it as a PS replacement are
> >>> delusional. There is no comparison.

>
> >> It's a replacement for the people who use just the tools in Photoshop
> >> that are present in GIMP. *There are an awful lot of people in that
> >> group. *That's my point.

>
> >>> ...but it can edit and adjust image files, and most importantly for
> >>> many, it is free, and open source for the Linux crowd.

>
> >>> ...and the last time I used "Auto" on a DSLR was the first week I had
> >>> my D70 some time in 2004.

>
> >> Again, this isn't about you.

>
> > OK! OK! I get it. I was just pushing the envelope a little bit.

>
> > Of course my D300S doesn't have an "Auto" mode, Just "P", "A", "S", &
> > "M", and those are selected via the rear command wheel.

>
> > ....and not one "scene" mode to be found anywhere.

>
> Uhm! Why isn't P, with auto WB the same as an auto mode?
>
> --
> Peter


P is "Professional" mode .

 
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PeterN
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Posts: n/a
 
      08-30-2012
On 8/30/2012 12:07 AM, Savageduck wrote:
> On 2012-08-29 20:31:47 -0700, PeterN <(E-Mail Removed)> said:
>
>> On 8/29/2012 10:59 PM, Savageduck wrote:
>>> On 2012-08-29 19:16:00 -0700, tony cooper <(E-Mail Removed)>
>>> said:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, 29 Aug 2012 18:29:36 -0700, Savageduck
>>>> <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 2012-08-29 18:10:35 -0700, tony cooper <(E-Mail Removed)>
>>>>> said:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, 29 Aug 2012 16:03:23 -0700, Savageduck
>>>>>> <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 2012-08-29 15:46:38 -0700, "Russell D." <(E-Mail Removed)> said:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 08/28/2012 05:43 PM, Alan Browne wrote:
>>>>>>>>> I received an advert via e-mail that Elements 10 is $40 off.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Code is: ELEMENTSDEAL (online or call center).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> US and Canada (except Quebec for reasons that escape me).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Sorry this is so late - just opened my mail;
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> GIMP is still free.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Free, and after making the comparison with PS, it still sits
>>>>>>> unused on
>>>>>>> my computer.
>>>>>>> GIMP does a reasonable job for those who deny the functionality of
>>>>>>> CS5/6, or those who insist of "free". You do get what you pay for.
>>>>>>> After making the basic comparison and saying that they are both
>>>>>>> capable
>>>>>>> of editing and adjusting image files, there is no contest. CS3/4/5/6
>>>>>>> are all far superior to GIMP.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ...but GIMP is "free".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't know how you can really compare Photoshop with GIMP.
>>>>>
>>>>> You can't.
>>>>>
>>>>>> It's horses for courses.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yup!
>>>>>
>>>>>> Anyone who has used both will tell you that GIMP is extremely limited
>>>>>> compared to Photoshop, but that's only a problem if you want to go
>>>>>> beyond the basic edits. Even GIMP is over-kill for some people.
>>>>>
>>>>> Undoubtably.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Photoshop only becomes superior to GIMP when the user wants to
>>>>>> progress to more than GIMP can do.
>>>>>
>>>>> No. It has always been superior. The tools have been there regardless
>>>>> of the user's ability to deal with the program.
>>>>
>>>> That's true, but I think you're ignoring the meaning here. If the
>>>> user isn't aware of what the tool can do, and doesn't get training on
>>>> the use of the tool, it's as if the tool isn't there.
>>>>
>>>>>> I think that if some malware went
>>>>>> out to all Photoshop users that crippled every function in Photoshop
>>>>>> that is not present in GIMP, that 90-some percent of the users would
>>>>>> be able to do exactly what they're doing now. (Professionals
>>>>>> excluded)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The same can be said for dslrs. Sneak in and superglue the
>>>>>> cameras to
>>>>>> the AUTO setting and a majority of users would be producing the same
>>>>>> output they were when using A,S,P, and M...if they ever did.
>>>>>
>>>>> Unlikely what ifs.
>>>>>
>>>>> I thought you might have got my point.
>>>>
>>>> I'm not talking about you, Duck. You're in the 10% because you
>>>> understand and use the tools in Photoshop.
>>>>
>>>>> I have made my attempt at GIMP and found it lacking for me. Others
>>>>> might find it adequate, but those who tout it as a PS replacement are
>>>>> delusional. There is no comparison.
>>>>
>>>> It's a replacement for the people who use just the tools in Photoshop
>>>> that are present in GIMP. There are an awful lot of people in that
>>>> group. That's my point.
>>>>
>>>>> ...but it can edit and adjust image files, and most importantly for
>>>>> many, it is free, and open source for the Linux crowd.
>>>>>
>>>>> ...and the last time I used "Auto" on a DSLR was the first week I had
>>>>> my D70 some time in 2004.
>>>>
>>>> Again, this isn't about you.
>>>
>>> OK! OK! I get it. I was just pushing the envelope a little bit.
>>>
>>> Of course my D300S doesn't have an "Auto" mode, Just "P", "A", "S", &
>>> "M", and those are selected via the rear command wheel.
>>>
>>> ....and not one "scene" mode to be found anywhere.
>>>

>>
>> Uhm! Why isn't P, with auto WB the same as an auto mode?

>
> First the auto WB is only applicable if you are shooting JPEG, or
> RAW+JPEG. The "P" mode in the D300/S and the Nikon Prosumer DSLRs has a
> degree of auto, but does not function in the same way "auto" does on say
> a D70. "P" stands for "Programed Auto". However it allows a degree of
> flexibility which exceeds "Auto" in a D70 or such.
> For example shooting in "Auto" generally means setting to "Auto" and
> letting the camera do its thing. In "P" mode, you have the ability to
> adjust aperture via the main Command wheel. The shutter speed will then
> balance with the selected f-stop and set ISO to reach a metered
> exposure. You might say that "P" mode is "Auto flex" rather than the
> hands off approach offered by full auto.
>
> Of course in "P" mode, which also exists on the D70, if you don't touch
> anything you have something of an "Auto" mode, but it is more than that.
>
>


If I RTFM I would have known that.
I usually shoot in Aperture preferred or manual mode. I then adjust the
ISO i to change the shutter speed. I don't thin I have ever used P mode.

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Peter
 
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PeterN
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      08-30-2012
On 8/30/2012 12:53 PM, Savageduck wrote:
> On 2012-08-30 07:50:38 -0700, PeterN <(E-Mail Removed)> said:
>
>> On 8/30/2012 12:07 AM, Savageduck wrote:
>>> On 2012-08-29 20:31:47 -0700, PeterN <(E-Mail Removed)>
>>> said:

>
> <<< Le Snip >>>
>
>>>> Uhm! Why isn't P, with auto WB the same as an auto mode?
>>>
>>> First the auto WB is only applicable if you are shooting JPEG, or
>>> RAW+JPEG. The "P" mode in the D300/S and the Nikon Prosumer DSLRs has a
>>> degree of auto, but does not function in the same way "auto" does on say
>>> a D70. "P" stands for "Programed Auto". However it allows a degree of
>>> flexibility which exceeds "Auto" in a D70 or such.
>>> For example shooting in "Auto" generally means setting to "Auto" and
>>> letting the camera do its thing. In "P" mode, you have the ability to
>>> adjust aperture via the main Command wheel. The shutter speed will then
>>> balance with the selected f-stop and set ISO to reach a metered
>>> exposure. You might say that "P" mode is "Auto flex" rather than the
>>> hands off approach offered by full auto.
>>>
>>> Of course in "P" mode, which also exists on the D70, if you don't touch
>>> anything you have something of an "Auto" mode, but it is more than that.
>>>
>>>

>>
>> If I RTFM I would have known that.
>> I usually shoot in Aperture preferred or manual mode. I then adjust
>> the ISO i to change the shutter speed. I don't thin I have ever used P
>> mode.

>
> I don't want to mislead you with regard to ISO. What I intended to say
> was it would use the ISO you had set.
> Auto ISO could be applied and you would be moving closer to a full
> "Auto" mode. However "Auto ISO has to be selected via the shooting menu,
> where you can turn it on or off. You can then set the maximum range
> limit for "Auto ISO". In "P" & "A" modes, the default will be ISO 200,
> and will only be auto-adjusted if the shutter speed at the particular
> f/stop would result in an under exposed image.
>


Doesn't look like a feature I would use. I guess some would find it helpful.


--
Peter
 
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Pablo
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      09-02-2012
tony cooper escribió:

<Gimp>

> It's a replacement for the people who use just the tools in Photoshop
> that are present in GIMP. There are an awful lot of people in that
> group. That's my point.


<waves>

I can sharpen, resize, perspectify etc. In fact, I can do some of that
before even starting Gimp, because I mess with the raws in Canon's DPP
first.

People are also saying that in Gimp 2.8 one can do nearly all that can be
done with PS, but you have to know how. Personally, I neither know nor care.

What is the convention in these groups about cross-posting? I got shouted at
once for setting follow-ups, but it just doesn't feel right cross-posting to
3 groups. Kind of goes against the grain.

--
Pablo

http://www.flickr.com/photos/wibbleypants/
The below is a link to an ad for an apartment
for rent. It may or may not be of interest to photographers.
Follow the link at your peril.
http://paulc.es/piso/index.php
 
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Pablo
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      09-02-2012
Savageduck escribió:

> On 2012-09-02 04:08:33 -0700, Pablo <(E-Mail Removed)> said:


>> People are also saying that in Gimp 2.8 one can do nearly all that can be
>> done with PS, but you have to know how.

>
> "People are saying." I guess those are GIMP users justifying using GIMP.


Seems rather a rash and maybe even petty assumption to make.

I'm guessing that they have some experience of PS to be able to make the
comparison ie; they probably have both. BICBW of course.

--
Pablo

http://www.flickr.com/photos/wibbleypants/
The below is a link to an ad for an apartment
for rent. It may or may not be of interest to photographers.
Follow the link at your peril.
http://paulc.es/piso/index.php
 
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tony cooper
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      09-02-2012
On Sun, 2 Sep 2012 05:57:39 -0700, Savageduck
<savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:

>On 2012-09-02 04:08:33 -0700, Pablo <(E-Mail Removed)> said:
>
>> tony cooper escribió:
>>
>> <Gimp>
>>
>>> It's a replacement for the people who use just the tools in Photoshop
>>> that are present in GIMP. There are an awful lot of people in that
>>> group. That's my point.

>>
>> <waves>
>>
>> I can sharpen, resize, perspectify etc. In fact, I can do some of that
>> before even starting Gimp, because I mess with the raws in Canon's DPP
>> first.

>
>If that is all you need, and it works for you why worry? Just keep in
>mind there might come a time in the future to reexamine any benefit you
>might get from CS6 v GIMP. (There is a trial version available.)
>>
>> People are also saying that in Gimp 2.8 one can do nearly all that can be
>> done with PS, but you have to know how.

>
>"People are saying." I guess those are GIMP users justifying using GIMP.


Why should a user of a program works for them have to justify using
it?

--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
 
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Pablo
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      09-02-2012
Savageduck escribió:

> There are some of us who have actually made the comparison, and GIMP is
> lacking, and comes up short when compared with PS CS3/4/5/6 & and
> event the latest versions of PSE.


Have you tried Gimp 2.8?

--
Pablo

http://www.flickr.com/photos/wibbleypants/
The below is a link to an ad for an apartment
for rent. It may or may not be of interest to photographers.
Follow the link at your peril.
http://paulc.es/piso/index.php
 
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Re: Photoshop Elements sale: $59 Aug 28 only tony cooper Digital Photography 0 08-30-2012 03:53 AM
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