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In article <>, tony cooper
<> wrote:

> Why you'd need the full manual on your phone is beyond me, but if it
> works for you...go for it.

it's much easier to copy the entire pdf and search for relevant info
than take the time to edit it down to a few pages. it's not like it
takes up much space.

a typical smartphone has a capacity of 16-32 gig and the nikon d7000
manual is just 22 meg. you could carry manuals for over 100 cameras and
still not make a dent in the available storage.

In article <>, tony cooper
<> wrote:

> >> Y'all do understand that not everyone who owns a camera also owns a
> >> smart phone, an iPad, or any kind of device that conveniently stores a
> >> manual and retrieves it in the field?
> >
> >not everyone owns a printer either.
>
> Probably a larger percentage of computer owners own a printer than own
> smartphones.

probably, but not everyone has a printer.

> >and actually most people *do* now own a smartphone. it broke 50%
> >earlier this year and continues to grow at a record pace, more so than
> >any other consumer product.
>
> What does "most" have to do with what I said? What you have so
> cleverly pointed out is that about 49% don't own smartphones. That's
> a whomping great number.

49% is big, but it's dropping rapidly. an awful *lot* of people have
smartphones.

someone who has the bucks to buy a fancy slr is likely to have a
smartphone. obviously, if they don't have a smartphone, they'll have to
resort to old style solutions, but if they do have one, why not take
advantage of what it can do?

> >> When I bought my in-car compact camera, I printed out part of the
> >> manual - on paper - and keep it in the car. The settings are not
> >> intuitive, so I need the manual until I get used to the camera.
> >
> >why not buy a camera with intuitive settings? why make things difficult
> >for yourself?
>
> Any purchase is a compromise.

nobody said otherwise.

> This compact shoots RAW, has the
> ability to set speed and aperture, and has an extended zoom range; all
> features that I wanted for an in-car camera when I don't have my dslr
> with me.

if it was the only compact that could shoot raw and change exposure
settings, and your choice was either that or a camera with a good
interface without those features, then you might have a point.

the reality is that there are numerous compact cameras that do the
things you listed *and* have a well designed interface. you can get
both.

> >> I see no reason to buy more devices to avoid printing out a few pages
> >> of paper.
> >
> >a few pages?? what camera manual is a few pages?
> >
> >the d7000 manual is over 300 pages. that's a *lot* of paper*.
>
> Some are smarter than you, nospam. A 300 page manual contains many
> pages that are not needed for reference. I think I printed about 6 or
> 8 pages, and that was sufficient.
>
> You may not be smart enough to cull the pages down to the ones needed,
> but some are.

not only am i smart enough to cull the pages, but i don't need the
manual at all. cameras are not that hard to figure out.

bummer for you that you need to fall back to a manual at all. maybe you
need to take a class too.

> You would probably upload the entire manual to your
> smartphone and have to scroll through 300 pages to find the right one.

once again, you don't get it.

with the manual in electronic form, you can do this amazing thing
called search, eliminating the need to manually scroll to find the
right page. the computer finds it for you and *much* faster than you
ever could.

in other words, make the computer do the work. that's what it's for.

you can also bookmark important pages and jump right to them, as well
as annotate pages (non-destructively too).

why do you fight technology so much?

On Mon, 17 Sep 2012 12:36:05 -0400, nospam <>
wrote:

>> >why not buy a camera with intuitive settings? why make things difficult
>> >for yourself?
>>
>> Any purchase is a compromise.
>
>nobody said otherwise.
>
>> This compact shoots RAW, has the
>> ability to set speed and aperture, and has an extended zoom range; all
>> features that I wanted for an in-car camera when I don't have my dslr
>> with me.
>
>if it was the only compact that could shoot raw and change exposure
>settings, and your choice was either that or a camera with a good
>interface without those features, then you might have a point.
>
>the reality is that there are numerous compact cameras that do the
>things you listed *and* have a well designed interface. you can get
>both.

Why do you assume the camera doesn't have a well-designed interface?
The navigation functions were different for me, and not particularly
intuitive to me, but not necessarily poorly designed. Just a
different set-up than I'm used to with my Nikon.

Based on your contributions to this newsgroup, I assume you use a
Kodak Instamatic, so "interface" is not something you have dealt with.


--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

In article <>, tony cooper
<> wrote:

> Why do you assume the camera doesn't have a well-designed interface?

because you said you need the manual.

a well designed interface would not have this need. it would be obvious
how it works.

> The navigation functions were different for me, and not particularly
> intuitive to me, but not necessarily poorly designed. Just a
> different set-up than I'm used to with my Nikon.

non-intuitive = poorly designed.

Eric Stevens <> writes:

> On Sun, 16 Sep 2012 15:04:52 -0400, nospam <>
> wrote:
>
>>In article <>, Robert Coe
>><> wrote:
>>
>>> : I downloaded the D7000 manuals from the Nikon site in both English and
>>> : French recently. No requirement for a serial number or any other proof of
>>> : ownership.
>>>
>>> And they were printable? (Not all downloaded PDF's are.)
>>
>>why would you want to print it? it's far more useful in electronic form.
>
> You might need it in the field.

That's one reason electronic form is more useful; I can carry more of
the manual for emergency reference without breaking my back. I keep
camera and flash manuals in my phone, for example.
--
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On Mon, 17 Sep 2012 10:22:03 -0700, Savageduck
<savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:

>On 2012-09-17 09:04:41 -0700, tony cooper <> said:
>
>> On Mon, 17 Sep 2012 08:26:44 -0700, Savageduck
>> <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2012-09-17 07:23:12 -0700, tony cooper <> said:
>>>
>>>> On Sun, 16 Sep 2012 21:12:23 -0700, Savageduck
>>>> <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 2012-09-16 20:46:06 -0700, nospam <> said:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In article <>, Eric Stevens
>>>>>> <> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> : I downloaded the D7000 manuals from the Nikon site in both English and
>>>>>>>>> : French recently. No requirement for a serial number or any other proof of
>>>>>>>>> : ownership.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And they were printable? (Not all downloaded PDF's are.)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> why would you want to print it? it's far more useful in electronic form.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You might need it in the field.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> you're going to carry all that paper? especially unbounded?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> if you need a reference in the field, put the pdf on a smartphone or
>>>>>> tablet.
>>>>>
>>>>> I keep all my manuals as PDFs on both my iPhone & iPad. They are kept
>>>>> in the iBooks book case, easily accessible, important, & frequently
>>>>> referenced sections can be book marked.
>>>>> Works much better than the paper manual, and I can print, email,
>>>>> message or text, individual sections or pages.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> better yet, get one of the many dedicated apps that go much further
>>>>>> than the manual does.
>>>>
>>>> Y'all do understand that not everyone who owns a camera also owns a
>>>> smart phone, an iPad, or any kind of device that conveniently stores a
>>>> manual and retrieves it in the field?
>>>
>>> Yes. However, it is an option for those who own such devices, and I can
>>> think of at least five regular contributors to the photo news groups
>>> who own and use 4 iPhones and one Android phone.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> When I bought my in-car compact camera, I printed out part of the
>>>> manual - on paper - and keep it in the car. The settings are not
>>>> intuitive, so I need the manual until I get used to the camera.
>>>
>>> My D300S, and I am sure your D60 came with a compact and convenient, 64
>>> page "Quick Guide" booklet, which resides in my bag. However, I also
>>> have the full manual as a very accessible PDF in my iPhone, which I
>>> usually have with me.
>>
>> The compact camera manual is 150 pages. I have a link to it on my
>> desktop. I'd have to go out to the car to count how many of those
>> pages I printed, but I think it was 6 to 8.
>>
>> I've had the camera for a few weeks now, but haven't used it much.
>> Even so, I need to look at those 6 to 8 pages of manual far less
>> frequently.
>>
>> Most of the contents of any manual is stuff that pertains to any
>> digital camera and a lot of boilerplate. I don't need the manual to
>> know how to remove the battery or the SD card or do any of the routine
>> functions involved with a camera.
>>
>> Why you'd need the full manual on your phone is beyond me, but if it
>> works for you...go for it.
>>
>> I could link to the full manual, or download it to, my laptop and take
>> it with me when I go out. I don't see any point to doing so, however.
>> The 6 to 8 pages cover everything I might need that is different from
>> any camera.
>
>This discussion is a little silly.

Most discussions that involve nospam are.

> If truth be told, I pretty much go
>through my manuals of new purchases within one or two days of getting
>the box unpacked. Then after establishing familiarity with the features
>and operation through use, what I need for normal operation is
>intuitive. It is rare that I refer to the manual, and then it is
>usually some esoteric feature I don't use that much, and I need a
>reminder.

In this case, it's a camera that I rarely use. In the weeks that I
have owned it, I've used it less than half-a-dozen times. I keep it
in the car just for occasions when I don't have my Nikon with me, and
see a shot I want.

The camera is a Fuji F600EXR. The EXR mode is a bit different than
I'm used to, and changing the speed and aperture in the manual setting
mode is quite different than the Nikon's function. There's also an
"F-mode" setting that I haven't tried yet. It has GPS capability
that I've never bothered to set. The manual pages I printed cover
these points.

The camera has good and bad points. The shots taken with it are quite
sharp. The positive points of the reviews of the camera turned out to
be spot-on.

The negative is the zoom function. Instead of twisting the zoom ring
as we do with a dslr, there's a little lever that is pushed to one
side or the other. The resulting change in zoom is jerky and
difficult to set to frame the image as I want to. Since a lot of my
efforts are "street" shots where an instant grab is looked for, this
is frustrating. If the scene is static, and there's ample time to
compose, the zoom function is no problem.

The zoom aspect wasn't covered in the reviews. The 15X zoom range was
covered, but not the lever operation jerkiness.
>
>I have the manuals in my iPhone, because I can, not because I need to
>refer to them constantly.

Yes, and mine are in the car and pulled out only when I need them.
Better to have the 6-8 pages available than not.



--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

On Mon, 17 Sep 2012 12:36:05 -0400, nospam <>
wrote:

>why do you fight technology so much?

I really wonder, sometimes, if you genuinely understand why other
people do what they do, or if you think that other people should
always do what you do.

I have a mobile phone. It's the cheapest phone I could find. 99% of
the calls or texts I make and get on that phone are from my wife, my
children, or my grandchildren. They are usually very short calls. A
"better" phone offers no advantages to me that I can see.

I'm retired, so everything available to me on a smartphone is
available to me on my home desktop. I have no desire or need to have
those functions available to me away from home. I can honestly say
that I have never been away from home and wished that I could do
something on my phone that I can't do by other means.

I read about three books a week, and they are all checked out from the
library. I like going to the library and leafing through books to see
if I want to check them out. There's always a book in my car. If I
could do the same thing with ebooks, why should I? There's no
advantage of me.

The Duck made the point of being able to upload a photo to Dropbox
using his phone. I have never taken a photo where there was any
urgency in uploading that photo to Dropbox; I wait until I get home.
If I was going to be away from home for a few days, I'd take my laptop
where I could do this.

You seem to want technology to lead me by the nose. You think that
because I don't take advantage of certain forms of technology that I
am either resistant to technology or ignorant of what technology can
offer.

The reality is that I am financially able to buy whatever gadgetry
that is available, but what I don't add is what I don't see the need
for or have interest in.





--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

In article <>, tony cooper
<> wrote:

> >why do you fight technology so much?
>
> I really wonder, sometimes, if you genuinely understand why other
> people do what they do, or if you think that other people should
> always do what you do.

i really wonder how you come to that conclusion. where did i say
everyone has to do what i do?

technology makes a lot of things much easier than they used to be. i am
puzzled why people continue to do things the hard way but whatever
works.

> I have a mobile phone. It's the cheapest phone I could find.

so you're a cheapskate too.

> 99% of
> the calls or texts I make and get on that phone are from my wife, my
> children, or my grandchildren. They are usually very short calls. A
> "better" phone offers no advantages to me that I can see.
>
> I'm retired, so everything available to me on a smartphone is
> available to me on my home desktop.

except portability, gps, location aware apps, accelerometer, gyroscope,
augmented reality, push notifications and nfc on some devices. but
other than that...

> I have no desire or need to have
> those functions available to me away from home.

so why do you have a laptop?

> I can honestly say
> that I have never been away from home and wished that I could do
> something on my phone that I can't do by other means.

people used to say that about cellphones.

> I read about three books a week, and they are all checked out from the
> library. I like going to the library and leafing through books to see
> if I want to check them out. There's always a book in my car. If I
> could do the same thing with ebooks, why should I? There's no
> advantage of me.

i have a couple dozen books on my tablet and i can get more at any
time, anywhere, wherever i happen to be, either buying or from a
library or even borrowing (yes you can loan ebooks to others).

> The Duck made the point of being able to upload a photo to Dropbox
> using his phone. I have never taken a photo where there was any
> urgency in uploading that photo to Dropbox; I wait until I get home.
> If I was going to be away from home for a few days, I'd take my laptop
> where I could do this.

with a smartphone you wouldn't need to take the laptop. one less thing
to carry, and one less thing at risk of being stolen.

> You seem to want technology to lead me by the nose. You think that
> because I don't take advantage of certain forms of technology that I
> am either resistant to technology or ignorant of what technology can
> offer.

you are clearly resistant to technology. there's nothing wrong with
that but don't expect others to do the same.

technology is moving forward, and quite rapidly, and that's a very good
thing.

> The reality is that I am financially able to buy whatever gadgetry
> that is available, but what I don't add is what I don't see the need
> for or have interest in.

suit yourself.

In article <>, Eric Stevens
<> wrote:

> >the d7000 manual is over 300 pages. that's a *lot* of paper*.
>
> If you feel the need to print the lot you can probably get 4 pages per
> sheet = 75 sheets.

and then have it too tiny to read.

regardless, 75 pages is still a *lot* of paper to carry.

On Mon, 17 Sep 2012 19:09:01 -0400, nospam <>
wrote:

>In article <>, tony cooper
><> wrote:
>
>> >why do you fight technology so much?
>>
>> I really wonder, sometimes, if you genuinely understand why other
>> people do what they do, or if you think that other people should
>> always do what you do.
>
>i really wonder how you come to that conclusion. where did i say
>everyone has to do what i do?
>
>technology makes a lot of things much easier than they used to be. i am
>puzzled why people continue to do things the hard way but whatever
>works.

And I am puzzled by why some people think doing certain things is
doing them the "hard way".

>> I have a mobile phone. It's the cheapest phone I could find.
>
>so you're a cheapskate too.

Absolutely. Before I make any purchase of enough magnitude I mentally
ask myself "What will I gain from this purchase?". Since all I want
and expect from a mobile phone is the ability to send and receive
phone calls and texts, the cheapest phone was the obvious choice.


>> 99% of
>> the calls or texts I make and get on that phone are from my wife, my
>> children, or my grandchildren. They are usually very short calls. A
>> "better" phone offers no advantages to me that I can see.
>>
>> I'm retired, so everything available to me on a smartphone is
>> available to me on my home desktop.
>
>except portability, gps, location aware apps, accelerometer, gyroscope,
>augmented reality, push notifications and nfc on some devices. but
>other than that...

Keep going until you come to something that I feel I want or need.

>> I have no desire or need to have
>> those functions available to me away from home.
>
>so why do you have a laptop?

I bought it before taking a two week trip to Indiana from Florida in
order to use email en route. It was also handy in making motel
reservations on the road. Since we kind of wandered up and back, we'd
wait until late in the day to go online and make a reservation a few
hours up the road. I've used it on other trips. Other than trips
away from home, I rarely get it out.


>> The Duck made the point of being able to upload a photo to Dropbox
>> using his phone. I have never taken a photo where there was any
>> urgency in uploading that photo to Dropbox; I wait until I get home.
>> If I was going to be away from home for a few days, I'd take my laptop
>> where I could do this.
>
>with a smartphone you wouldn't need to take the laptop. one less thing
>to carry, and one less thing at risk of being stolen.

The car is large enough to accommodate a laptop.
>
>> You seem to want technology to lead me by the nose. You think that
>> because I don't take advantage of certain forms of technology that I
>> am either resistant to technology or ignorant of what technology can
>> offer.
>
>you are clearly resistant to technology. there's nothing wrong with
>that but don't expect others to do the same.

No, but I am resistant to buying things I have no interest in owning.
Seems logical to me.

>technology is moving forward, and quite rapidly, and that's a very good
>thing.
>
>> The reality is that I am financially able to buy whatever gadgetry
>> that is available, but what I don't add is what I don't see the need
>> for or have interest in.
>
>suit yourself.


--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida