«

On 08/23/2012 06:21 PM, Malcolm McLean wrote:
> בת�ריך יו� חמישי, 23 ב�וגוסט 2012 23:01:28 UTC+1, מ�ת James Kuyper:
>> On 08/23/2012 05:57 PM, CRNG wrote:
>>
>>
>> If you don't consider any of your currently available alternatives
>> reasonable, you could be waiting a very long time - probably the entire
>> rest of your life.
>>
> The Microsoft monopoly is no more. The mobile phone ate it away, together
> with allied devices such as e-readers and tablet computers. Apple's desktop
> computer business and Linux were also irritants, and have been growing.

Those are the alternatives I was referring to. It's a fairly good
selection. If someone doesn't consider any of them acceptable, it may be
a very long time before an alternative that they would consider
acceptable shows up.

> SO, I downloaded windows 8, and installed it. That went fairly smoothly
> but I forgot that windows doesn't come with the remote desktop connection.

Remote desktop is included from W8 pro and up (I'm using W8 enterprise,
since i'm on a domain).
Google "windows 8 editions" for comparsion.

<snip a lot about VS2012 and metro>

It seems that you downloaded VS2012 express for metro.
What you want is VS2012 expess for desktop, which will be released later.
Any of the VS2012 paid versions include both, and also the corresponding
docs.

Leo Havmøller.

What is your confusion? A console app, a desktop app, a metro app, services,
are separate paradigms. They are all available on Windows 8. Pick your
poison. You seem to be flailing wildly for no apparent reason. Every
whiz-bang UI paradigm is not obligated to support the C programming model.
Separate UI code from application (reuseable) code. The serious stuff gets
done in modules separate from the UI (in any significant, well-designed
application program).

jacob navia wrote:
> ) The concept of a current working directory doesn't apply to Metro
> style apps and there is no current drive.
>
> Also, corresponding APIs such as GetCurrentDirectory and
> SetCurrentDirectory are not available in the MSDK.
>
> Say goodbye to:
> chdir chdir chdrive wchdir getcwd getcwd getdcwd getdcwd_nolock
> wgetcwd _wgetdcwd wgetdcwd_nolock
>
> 2) Say goodbye to the console. Metro style apps are GUI only; they
> don't support console. Goodbye stdin, stderr, stdout.
>
> 3) Pipe functionality is not available to Metro style apps.
>
> 4) Environment variables are not available to Metro style apps.
> Goodbye to getenv, putenv, etc.
>
> 5) A Metro style app cannot invoke another Metro style app or a
> desktop app. Goodbye to system, spawnxxx execxxx etc.
>
> 6) C strings are out. Goodbye strcpy strlwr strlen, etc.
>
> 7) Low level I/O functions: fopen fwrite etc. These functions are
> synchronous, which is not recommended for Metro style apps. In your
> Metro style apps, use asynchronous APIs to open, read from, and
> write to files to prevent locking of the UI thread. Examples of
> such APIs are the ones in the Windows::Storage::FileIO class.
>
> Great. Welcome to the future. This means that lcc-win will never be
> able to generate any "Metro" applications since all interfaces with
> the system go through a COM interface that would be feasible to adapt
> but what a pain!
>
> I just do not have the resources nor the will to follow Microsoft any
> more in that direction.
>
> The controls we are used to since windows 3.0 have disappeared (the
> famous group box, for instance)... Many others are different, anyway
> you have to rewrite absolutely EVERYTHING AGAIN, as well as you have
> to learn windows again. The famous "start" button has disappeared, the
> interface is completely different, all the reflexes are now WRONG,
> you have to look for a few minutes after you find how to TURN OFF
> windows
>
> But I eventually find that button.
>
> Phew!

CRNG wrote:

> Next step: Uninstall Win 8 and stick with WinXP until something
> reasonable comes along.

Win 7 (with Aero turned off). I've been using virtually the same desktop
style since Win 95, so I don't see any value in major GUI changes on the
desktop. I do admit that I hate the Win 7 Explorer (file manager) and search
integration. I think they really f'd up with the emphasis on search over
organization. Overall though, I find Win 7 a worthwhile improvement over Win
XP for reasons other than the GUI.

Le 24/08/12 06:52, Leo Havmøller a écrit :
>> SO, I downloaded windows 8, and installed it. That went fairly smoothly
>> but I forgot that windows doesn't come with the remote desktop
>> connection.
>
> Remote desktop is included from W8 pro and up (I'm using W8 enterprise,
> since i'm on a domain).
> Google "windows 8 editions" for comparsion.
>

I know but when I downloaded it, I got my product key ( I have bought an
expensive MSDN subscription) it would not be recognized.

No way out. MSDN France didn't know what to do either.

> <snip a lot about VS2012 and metro>
>
> It seems that you downloaded VS2012 express for metro.

No, I downloaded VS Professional.

> What you want is VS2012 expess for desktop, which will be released later.
> Any of the VS2012 paid versions include both, and also the corresponding
> docs.
>
> Leo Havmøller.

Visual Studio 2012 does allow to compile applications for C with the
same limitations as for VS 2010.

Le 24/08/12 09:06, Don't make my brown eyes China Blue a écrit :

> (MacOSX unfortunately distinguishes loginwindow descended from launchd descended
> and blocks the GPU and some other MacOSX functionality from daemons. That's one
> advantage of Linux.)
>

Look, I develop in a Mac (0S X 10. and you can OF COURSE develop GUI
applications that use the full Unix/Mac libraries. Of course you have to
sandbox them to be able to put them into an iPhone but for the Mac
Desktop there are no such restrictions.

That is the problem here. Microsoft doesn't make the distinction between
a sandboxed application and a desktop application apparently and the
whole Metro sdk is designed for a subset of languages all
exclusively running in a Microsoft platform: Managed C++, C#, Java
script, and all .net languages.

C doesn't fit there.

This is the end of a development that was announced with the refusal to
support C99 at all, the marking of the whole C library as obsolete by
Visual Studio, and other developments: the last SDK released was several
years ago, all develoment of the C interfaces stopped, etc.

> That is the problem here. Microsoft doesn't make the distinction between a
> sandboxed application and a desktop application apparently and the whole
> Metro sdk is designed for a subset of languages all
> exclusively running in a Microsoft platform: Managed C++, C#, Java script,
> and all .net languages.
> C doesn't fit there.

The real question is: Why would you want to develop a metro style
application at all?

Leo Havmøller.

Am 23.08.2012 22:51, schrieb jacob navia:
> Of course. But the new interface is no longer available, and the C
> interface is no longer maintained

Of course it is available and still maintained. The server editions of
windows require those features, the business customers require those
features, ...

Maybe you just downloaded the wrong Visual Studio Express Edition?

Bye,
Daniel

On Aug 23, 7:05*pm, jacob navia <ja...@spamsink.net> wrote:

> This is a long story. It starts years ago since windows 3.1 and it ends
> now, with "Metro".

<snip>

> Then, I started looking at the documentation of the SDK. And then I
> noticed that C is no longer mentioned ANYWHERE. The only reference is to
> "managed C++" That is the Microsoft version of C++ stock full with
> __gc_class, ref class etc.



[to be honest i could live without C (my C usuallly goes through a C++
compiler without much hassle). But no C++ either!]

> In the reference to C++ I found this:
>
> ) The concept of a current working directory doesn't apply to Metro
> * * style apps and there is no current drive.
>
> * * Also, corresponding APIs such as GetCurrentDirectory and
> * * SetCurrentDirectory are not available in the MSDK.
>
> * * Say goodbye to:
> * * chdir chdir chdrive wchdir getcwd getcwd getdcwd getdcwd_nolock
> * * wgetcwd _wgetdcwd wgetdcwd_nolock
>
> 2) Say goodbye to the console. Metro style apps are GUI only; they don't
> * * support console. Goodbye stdin, stderr, stdout.

;-(

I write console applications all the time to try things out! Little
utilities launched from the desktop etc.

> 3) Pipe functionality is not available to Metro style apps.
>
> 4) Environment variables are not available to Metro style apps. Goodbye
> * * to getenv, putenv, etc.
>
> 5) *A Metro style app cannot invoke another Metro style app or a
> * * desktop app. Goodbye to system, spawnxxx execxxx etc.
>
> 6) C strings are out. Goodbye strcpy strlwr strlen, etc.
>
> 7) Low level I/O *functions: fopen fwrite etc. These functions are
> * * synchronous, which is not recommended for Metro style apps. In your
> * * Metro style apps, use asynchronous APIs to open, read from, and
> * * write to files to prevent locking of the UI thread. Examples of such
> * * APIs are the ones in the Windows::Storage::FileIO class.
>
> Great. Welcome to the future. This means that lcc-win will never be able
> to generate any "Metro" applications since all interfaces with the
> system go through a COM interface that would be feasible to adapt but
> what a pain!
>
> I just do not have the resources nor the will to follow Microsoft any
> more in that direction.
>
> The controls we are used to since windows 3.0 have disappeared (the
> famous group box, for instance)... Many others are different, anyway
> you have to rewrite absolutely EVERYTHING AGAIN, as well as you have to
> learn windows again. The famous "start" button has disappeared, the
> interface is completely different, all the reflexes are now WRONG,
> you have to look for a few minutes after you find how to TURN OFF windows
>
> But I eventually find that button.
>
> Phew!

no Win32 interface at all? Maybe I will have to switch to Linux after
all.

Le 24/08/12 09:33, Daniel Weber a écrit :
> Am 23.08.2012 22:51, schrieb jacob navia:
>> Of course. But the new interface is no longer available, and the C
>> interface is no longer maintained
>
> Of course it is available and still maintained. The server editions of
> windows require those features, the business customers require those
> features, ...
>
> Maybe you just downloaded the wrong Visual Studio Express Edition?
>
> Bye,
> Daniel

1) I downloaded Visual studio Pro, (not express), and visual studio
has nothing to do with the new SDK as you (may) know. I am quoting
from the official SDK DOCUMENTATION, not from any visual studio
documentation.

2) The business customers will program in Java/Visual Basic, or managed
C++, and they will be able to use the system apparently. Since there
is no C interface you can't use C for any task interfacing with the
OS.