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Re: [SI] Pairs comments - Alan B.

 
 
PeterN
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      07-28-2012
On 7/28/2012 12:27 PM, Robert Coe wrote:

<snip>

> This thread is degenerating into a murky, inconclusive analysis of analysis -
> the sort of thing you might get in a prolonged debate between an Orthodox
> rabbi and a Jesuit. I think we should simply acknowledge that comments are
> good (at least they demonstrate interest), well thought-out comments are
> better, and deep, penetrating insight is as valuable as it is rare. Then go
> ahead and take the comments we receive for what they seem to be worth,
> remembering always that pride and defensiveness are often a creative person's
> worst enemies.
>


If you substitute "hubris" for "pride" I could agree with your
statement. Most of us take some sort of pride in any images that we post.



--

PeterN
 
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Robert Coe
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      07-28-2012
On Sat, 28 Jul 2012 14:26:51 -0400, PeterN <(E-Mail Removed)>
wrote:
: On 7/28/2012 12:27 PM, Robert Coe wrote:
:
: <snip>
:
: > This thread is degenerating into a murky, inconclusive analysis of analysis -
: > the sort of thing you might get in a prolonged debate between an Orthodox
: > rabbi and a Jesuit. I think we should simply acknowledge that comments are
: > good (at least they demonstrate interest), well thought-out comments are
: > better, and deep, penetrating insight is as valuable as it is rare. Then go
: > ahead and take the comments we receive for what they seem to be worth,
: > remembering always that pride and defensiveness are often a creative person's
: > worst enemies.
: >
:
: If you substitute "hubris" for "pride" I could agree with your
: statement. Most of us take some sort of pride in any images that we post.

Indeed, "hubris" is the more accurate term. Consider it substituted!

Bob
 
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PeterN
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      07-29-2012
On 7/28/2012 12:27 PM, Robert Coe wrote:


<snip>>


> This thread is degenerating into a murky, inconclusive analysis of analysis -
> the sort of thing you might get in a prolonged debate between an Orthodox
> rabbi and a Jesuit. I think we should simply acknowledge that comments are
> good (at least they demonstrate interest), well thought-out comments are
> better, and deep, penetrating insight is as valuable as it is rare. Then go
> ahead and take the comments we receive for what they seem to be worth,
> remembering always that pride and defensiveness are often a creative person's
> worst enemies.
>


I certainly acknowledge that.
However, the Duck has made it clear that if I comment, I should comment
on all images. I do not agree with that assertion.


--
Peter
 
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PeterN
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      07-30-2012
On 7/29/2012 3:51 PM, Savageduck wrote:
> On 2012-07-29 12:18:12 -0700, PeterN <(E-Mail Removed)> said:
>
>> On 7/28/2012 12:27 PM, Robert Coe wrote:
>>
>>
>> <snip>>
>>
>>
>>> This thread is degenerating into a murky, inconclusive analysis of
>>> analysis -
>>> the sort of thing you might get in a prolonged debate between an
>>> Orthodox
>>> rabbi and a Jesuit. I think we should simply acknowledge that
>>> comments are
>>> good (at least they demonstrate interest), well thought-out comments are
>>> better, and deep, penetrating insight is as valuable as it is rare.
>>> Then go
>>> ahead and take the comments we receive for what they seem to be worth,
>>> remembering always that pride and defensiveness are often a creative
>>> person's
>>> worst enemies.
>>>

>>
>> I certainly acknowledge that.
>> However, the Duck has made it clear that if I comment, I should
>> comment on all images. I do not agree with that assertion.

>
> Comment on whatever you choose to.
>
> My personal feeling is, if a submission has been made, and a commentator
> has chosen to make his opinion known for one, all are worthy of comment.
>
> Each of us has a particular sensitivity regarding the images we produce
> and then submit to scrutiny in the SI, or wherever we might share our
> images. We each make that effort. Then an individual who has taken the
> effort to comment on particular images for whatever reason, choses to
> deem some entries as unworthy of his comment, again for whatever reason
> demeans the effort made by a particular entrant.
>
> Imagine if you will, a first time SI entrant who is wary of taking that
> risk of submitting his/her work to an opinionated group of critics. This
> individual has seen comments made on entries in the past and hopes to
> learn something from comments made on their submission, only to find
> that their images don't interest one commentator, or have been deemed
> unworthy of comment. Personally I would find that extremely discouraging
> and would think twice about submitting any of my images to a group which
> places no value in my participation.
>
> Now imaging just how enthusiastic you might feel about the SI if all
> those who comment might just totally ignore any of your entries because
> they don't like your particular style and don't care to comment . Try
> going for two or three months with nary a word on your images, you might
> just stop shooting for the SI and sharing your images.
>
> I can only think there might be some folks who will think, "Damn! I've
> gone to the trouble of submitting an image to this SI thing, and nobody
> even takes the trouble to say they don't care for my work. **** them!"
>
> Anyway It would get to be very much a case of, here is what I have to
> say about these 5 or so images. I can't think of a thing to say about
> the rest. I ought to try that sometime, it would cut down on the effort
> I put into my minimalist comments.
>
> ....or perhaps we should just agree to forego comments at all, then we
> could truly watch the SI die on the vine.
>



If you are arguing that comments are good, I agree.
If you are saying that more comments are better, I agree, to the extent
that the additional comments are meaningful.
What I can't agree on is that no comments are better than some comments.




--
Peter
 
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tony cooper
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Posts: n/a
 
      07-30-2012
On Sun, 29 Jul 2012 18:24:26 -0700, Savageduck
<savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:

>No comments is not a good thing, cherry picking images for commentary
>is also not a good thing and has the potential to discourage some
>shooters leading to an SI drop out.


One problem with this theory is that sometimes we see nothing of
interest or positive to comment on in some images. I think I'm
probably too blunt the way it is. Sometimes it's kinder to not
comment.


--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
 
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tony cooper
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Posts: n/a
 
      07-30-2012
On Sun, 29 Jul 2012 20:52:41 -0700, Savageduck
<savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:

>On 2012-07-29 19:45:07 -0700, tony cooper <(E-Mail Removed)> said:
>
>> On Sun, 29 Jul 2012 18:24:26 -0700, Savageduck
>> <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>>
>>> No comments is not a good thing, cherry picking images for commentary
>>> is also not a good thing and has the potential to discourage some
>>> shooters leading to an SI drop out.

>>
>> One problem with this theory is that sometimes we see nothing of
>> interest or positive to comment on in some images. I think I'm
>> probably too blunt the way it is. Sometimes it's kinder to not
>> comment.

>
>...and where is the lesson to be learned for the individual who needs it?


First of all, the SI is not there to provide lessons. Secondly, I'm
not qualified as a teacher. I can, and do, offer opinion and
reaction, but this isn't a classroom.

I think my rather blunt opinions alienate some. I wouldn't want to
take that further by lecturing on images that have no appeal to me.

>Is it actually kinder to keep quiet. and let a photographer, blissfully
>continue to make the same mistakes he/she does not recognize? I don't
>think so.


Yeah, I think it is better with some images considering the nature of
the SI. We don't want to take the fun out of it.

>It starts to put us into the realm of the Flickr, "Great!" "Awesome!"
>"Fantastic shot!" platitudinous worthless one word utterance of empty
>praise. I thought that was one of the things we were trying to avoid
>here.


No comment is not the same as the banality one sees on Flickr.

>There are two sides to the SI and this commentary coin. All of us who
>who submit images to the SI are vulnerable to having our work
>criticized, hopefully it will be constructive criticism given without
>malice. We should all be receptive to that constructive criticism, as
>we might not recognize our own failings. It is part of the learning
>process. I know that I have benefitted from remarks made about some of
>my images.


"Constructive criticism" is criticism that the image taker thinks has
some merit. When the image taker doesn't agree with the comment, it
is malicious negativism that is completely unfounded, undeserved, and
the opinion of someone who doesn't know squat about photographry.
That's human nature.

--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
 
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PeterN
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Posts: n/a
 
      07-30-2012
On 7/29/2012 9:24 PM, Savageduck wrote:
> On 2012-07-29 17:39:23 -0700, PeterN <(E-Mail Removed)> said:
>
>> On 7/29/2012 3:51 PM, Savageduck wrote:
>>> On 2012-07-29 12:18:12 -0700, PeterN <(E-Mail Removed)>
>>> said:
>>>
>>>> On 7/28/2012 12:27 PM, Robert Coe wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> <snip>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> This thread is degenerating into a murky, inconclusive analysis of
>>>>> analysis -
>>>>> the sort of thing you might get in a prolonged debate between an
>>>>> Orthodox
>>>>> rabbi and a Jesuit. I think we should simply acknowledge that
>>>>> comments are
>>>>> good (at least they demonstrate interest), well thought-out
>>>>> comments are
>>>>> better, and deep, penetrating insight is as valuable as it is rare.
>>>>> Then go
>>>>> ahead and take the comments we receive for what they seem to be worth,
>>>>> remembering always that pride and defensiveness are often a creative
>>>>> person's
>>>>> worst enemies.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I certainly acknowledge that.
>>>> However, the Duck has made it clear that if I comment, I should
>>>> comment on all images. I do not agree with that assertion.
>>>
>>> Comment on whatever you choose to.
>>>
>>> My personal feeling is, if a submission has been made, and a commentator
>>> has chosen to make his opinion known for one, all are worthy of comment.
>>>
>>> Each of us has a particular sensitivity regarding the images we produce
>>> and then submit to scrutiny in the SI, or wherever we might share our
>>> images. We each make that effort. Then an individual who has taken the
>>> effort to comment on particular images for whatever reason, choses to
>>> deem some entries as unworthy of his comment, again for whatever reason
>>> demeans the effort made by a particular entrant.
>>>
>>> Imagine if you will, a first time SI entrant who is wary of taking that
>>> risk of submitting his/her work to an opinionated group of critics. This
>>> individual has seen comments made on entries in the past and hopes to
>>> learn something from comments made on their submission, only to find
>>> that their images don't interest one commentator, or have been deemed
>>> unworthy of comment. Personally I would find that extremely discouraging
>>> and would think twice about submitting any of my images to a group which
>>> places no value in my participation.
>>>
>>> Now imaging just how enthusiastic you might feel about the SI if all
>>> those who comment might just totally ignore any of your entries because
>>> they don't like your particular style and don't care to comment . Try
>>> going for two or three months with nary a word on your images, you might
>>> just stop shooting for the SI and sharing your images.
>>>
>>> I can only think there might be some folks who will think, "Damn! I've
>>> gone to the trouble of submitting an image to this SI thing, and nobody
>>> even takes the trouble to say they don't care for my work. **** them!"
>>>
>>> Anyway It would get to be very much a case of, here is what I have to
>>> say about these 5 or so images. I can't think of a thing to say about
>>> the rest. I ought to try that sometime, it would cut down on the effort
>>> I put into my minimalist comments.
>>>
>>> ....or perhaps we should just agree to forego comments at all, then we
>>> could truly watch the SI die on the vine.
>>>

>>
>>
>> If you are arguing that comments are good, I agree.
>> If you are saying that more comments are better, I agree, to the
>> extent that the additional comments are meaningful.

>
> So we agree.
>
>> What I can't agree on is that no comments are better than some comments.

>
> Since I didn't actually say that no comments were better than some
> comments, I must be at fault for not explaining myself clearer.
>
> I was formulating a worst case scenario.
> My intent was to show that a lack of comments, good, bad, or
> indifferent, confirmatory of another's opinion, good or bad, or an
> absence of thoughts on a fix, or the lack of an observation on how a
> pleasing effect was achieved, tend to discourage entrants and
> participation in the SI, or any other type of event.
>
> Think of your camera clubs and any in club competitions and critique
> sessions they might hold. How would you feel if the judges and critics
> bypassed your entries month after month without comment, or even remark
> as to why they were ignoring your work. I might find that discouraging,
> as I am sure you would. It would quickly become one of those clubs,
> Groucho, you, and I would not want to be a member of.
>
> My point was if all those of us who actually write comments, however
> valuable, for the complete monthly SI entry gallery, are for whatever
> reason are unable to comment, or just feel not up to making comments for
> a particular month, those who anticipate comments would surely be
> disappointed. Then if the only comments came from those who cherry
> picked images to comment on, there would be a bad taste of being ignored
> experienced by those shooters of images not commented on.
>
> No comments is not a good thing, cherry picking images for commentary is
> also not a good thing and has the potential to discourage some shooters
> leading to an SI drop out.
>
>
>
> So again, we agree.
>
> Comments are good. Comments for all are better.
> ....but do as you please.
>
>


That we may agree on most points is not the issue. A frank discussion is
more important. As I stated earlier, I consider that as the recipient of
comments, I have a moral obligation to help others with my comments.
That concept is indeed what keeps the SI going. I detest the flaccid
comments on other forums. They are, to be kind, contra helpful.
I spend some time trying to make helpful comments, without feeling
repetitive. Sorry! that's me.

I recently asked on of the members of my CC for a comment. I recognized
it was not a great image and was seeking advice. His reply was that he
had seen much better work from me, and the image was beyond fixing. What
I considered the main POI, he considered trivial and trite. Since I know
his comment to be honest, I revisited my image.
In retrospect he was right. That image will never again see the light of
day.


--
Peter
 
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otter
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      07-31-2012
On Jul 30, 6:51*pm, PeterN <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> On 7/29/2012 9:24 PM, Savageduck wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 2012-07-29 17:39:23 -0700, PeterN <(E-Mail Removed)> said:

>
> >> On 7/29/2012 3:51 PM, Savageduck wrote:
> >>> On 2012-07-29 12:18:12 -0700, PeterN <(E-Mail Removed)>
> >>> said:

>
> >>>> On 7/28/2012 12:27 PM, Robert Coe wrote:

>
> >>>> <snip>>

>
> >>>>> This thread is degenerating into a murky, inconclusive analysis of
> >>>>> analysis -
> >>>>> the sort of thing you might get in a prolonged debate between an
> >>>>> Orthodox
> >>>>> rabbi and a Jesuit. I think we should simply acknowledge that
> >>>>> comments are
> >>>>> good (at least they demonstrate interest), well thought-out
> >>>>> comments are
> >>>>> better, and deep, penetrating insight is as valuable as it is rare.
> >>>>> Then go
> >>>>> ahead and take the comments we receive for what they seem to be worth,
> >>>>> remembering always that pride and defensiveness are often a creative
> >>>>> person's
> >>>>> worst enemies.

>
> >>>> I certainly acknowledge that.
> >>>> However, the Duck has made it clear that if I comment, I should
> >>>> comment on all images. I do not agree with that assertion.

>
> >>> Comment on whatever you choose to.

>
> >>> My personal feeling is, if a submission has been made, and a commentator
> >>> has chosen to make his opinion known for one, all are worthy of comment.

>
> >>> Each of us has a particular sensitivity regarding the images we produce
> >>> and then submit to scrutiny in the SI, or wherever we might share our
> >>> images. We each make that effort. Then an individual who has taken the
> >>> effort to comment on particular images for whatever reason, choses to
> >>> deem some entries as unworthy of his comment, again for whatever reason
> >>> demeans the effort made by a particular entrant.

>
> >>> Imagine if you will, a first time SI entrant who is wary of taking that
> >>> risk of submitting his/her work to an opinionated group of critics. This
> >>> individual has seen comments made on entries in the past and hopes to
> >>> learn something from comments made on their submission, only to find
> >>> that their images don't interest one commentator, or have been deemed
> >>> unworthy of comment. Personally I would find that extremely discouraging
> >>> and would think twice about submitting any of my images to a group which
> >>> places no value in my participation.

>
> >>> Now imaging just how enthusiastic you might feel about the SI if all
> >>> those who comment might just totally ignore any of your entries because
> >>> they don't like your particular style and don't care to comment . Try
> >>> going for two or three months with nary a word on your images, you might
> >>> just stop shooting for the SI and sharing your images.

>
> >>> I can only think there might be some folks who will think, "Damn! I've
> >>> gone to the trouble of submitting an image to this SI thing, and nobody
> >>> even takes the trouble to say they don't care for my work. **** them!"

>
> >>> Anyway It would get to be very much a case of, here is what I have to
> >>> say about these 5 or so images. I can't think of a thing to say about
> >>> the rest. I ought to try that sometime, it would cut down on the effort
> >>> I put into my minimalist comments.

>
> >>> ....or perhaps we should just agree to forego comments at all, then we
> >>> could truly watch the SI die on the vine.

>
> >> If you are arguing that comments are good, I agree.
> >> If you are saying that more comments are better, I agree, to the
> >> extent that the additional comments are meaningful.

>
> > So we agree.

>
> >> What I can't agree on is that no comments are better than some comments.

>
> > Since I didn't actually say that no comments were better than some
> > comments, I must be at fault for not explaining myself clearer.

>
> > I was formulating a worst case scenario.
> > My intent was to show that a lack of comments, good, bad, or
> > indifferent, confirmatory of another's opinion, good or bad, or an
> > absence of thoughts on a fix, or the lack of an observation on how a
> > pleasing effect was achieved, tend to discourage entrants and
> > participation in the SI, or any other type of event.

>
> > Think of your camera clubs and any in club competitions and critique
> > sessions they might hold. How would you feel if the judges and critics
> > bypassed your entries month after month without comment, or even remark
> > as to why they were ignoring your work. I might find that discouraging,
> > as I am sure you would. It would quickly become one of those clubs,
> > Groucho, you, and I would not want to be a member of.

>
> > My point was if all those of us who actually write comments, however
> > valuable, for the complete monthly SI entry gallery, are for whatever
> > reason are unable to comment, or just feel not up to making comments for
> > a particular month, those who anticipate comments would surely be
> > disappointed. Then if the only comments came from those who cherry
> > picked images to comment on, there would be a bad taste of being ignored
> > experienced by those shooters of images not commented on.

>
> > No comments is not a good thing, cherry picking images for commentary is
> > also not a good thing and has the potential to discourage some shooters
> > leading to an SI drop out.

>
> > So again, we agree.

>
> > Comments are good. Comments for all are better.
> > ....but do as you please.

>
> That we may agree on most points is not the issue. A frank discussion is
> more important. As I stated earlier, I consider that as the recipient of
> comments, I have a moral obligation to help others with my comments.
> That concept is indeed what keeps the SI going. I detest the flaccid
> comments on other forums. They are, to be kind, contra helpful.
> I spend some time trying to make helpful comments, without feeling
> repetitive. Sorry! that's me.
>
> I recently asked on of the members of my CC for a comment. I recognized
> it was not a great image and was seeking advice. His reply was that he
> had seen much better work from me, and the image was beyond fixing. What
> I considered the main POI, he considered trivial and trite. Since I know
> his comment to be honest, I revisited my image.
> In retrospect he was right. That image will never again see the light of
> day.
>
> --
> Peter


I didn't know where to interject this, but this seems as good a place
as any. From the afterword to "And The Hippos Were Boiled In Their
Tanks", a book written by both Kerouac and Burroughs:

Kerouac describes his collaboration with Burroughs in the winter of
1944-45.

Why, old Will in that time, he just awaited the next monstrous
production from the pen of his young friend, me, and when I brought
them in he pursed his lips in an attitude of amused inquiry and read.
Having read what I offered up, he nodded his head and returned the
production to the hands of the maker. Me, I sat there perched on a
stool somewhat near this man's feet, either in my room or in his
apartment on Riverside Drive, in a conscious attitude of adoring
expectation, and finding my work returned to me with no more comment
than a nod of the head, said, almost blushingly, "You've read it, what
you think?"

The man Hubbard [Burroughs] nodded his head, like a Buddha, having
come to life from out of Nirvana what else was he s'posed to do? He
joined his fingertips resignedly. Peering over the arch of his hands
he answered, "Good, good."

"But what do you specifically think of it?"

"Why ..." pursing his lips and looking toward a sympathetic and
equally amused wall, "why, I don't specifically THINK of it. I just
rather like it, is all."
 
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Charles E. Hardwidge
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      07-31-2012
"otter" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...

> "Why ..." pursing his lips and looking toward a sympathetic and
> equally amused wall, "why, I don't specifically THINK of it. I just
> rather like it, is all."


I've got fed up discussing group dynamics, psychology and socialisation,
game theory, and all that junk so rarely bother anymore but that's a timely
intervention and rather good.

--
Charles E. Hardwidge

 
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Robert Coe
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      07-31-2012
On Sun, 29 Jul 2012 22:45:07 -0400, tony cooper <(E-Mail Removed)>
wrote:
: On Sun, 29 Jul 2012 18:24:26 -0700, Savageduck
: <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
:
: >No comments is not a good thing, cherry picking images for commentary
: >is also not a good thing and has the potential to discourage some
: >shooters leading to an SI drop out.
:
: One problem with this theory is that sometimes we see nothing of
: interest or positive to comment on in some images. I think I'm
: probably too blunt the way it is. Sometimes it's kinder to not
: comment.

Kindness isn't the issue; honesty is. If you don't have something useful to
say, say nothing. If you can give an honest, well thought out critique, do so.
If the critique doesn't resonate with the submitter, (s)he's free to ignore
it.

Bob
 
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