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David Taylor <david-> wrote:
>On 10/08/2012 21:57, Wolfgang Weisselberg wrote:
>> Why?
>> The P&S *needs* flash for all but full daylight outside, the M
>> can and will do indoors without flash.
>>
>> -Wolfgang
>
>While I can see the space argument, you are wrong about a P&S needing
>flash in all but full daylight. Even a fill-in flash would help the
>aspiring P&S photographer moving to the "M", so I think the lack of
>built-in flash is a disincentive.


I think you should ask the people who the EOS M is aimed at.

I'll say it again, for the benefit of people who may not have read it
before, that the EOS M is almost certainly not aimed at anyone reading
Usenet photo newsgroups or enthusiast forums. Canon has stated that
it is aimed at people trading up from compact P&S or superzoom cameras
who want EOS image quality in a small camera.

Canon sees this market as being composed more of women than men.

In some (most?) world markets, the EOS M will be bundled with a small
flash unit which easily fits in a pocket or handbag and can quickly be
clipped on when needed.

On 14/08/2012 22:47, Bruce wrote:
[]
> I think you should ask the people who the EOS M is aimed at.
>
> I'll say it again, for the benefit of people who may not have read it
> before, that the EOS M is almost certainly not aimed at anyone reading
> Usenet photo newsgroups or enthusiast forums. Canon has stated that
> it is aimed at people trading up from compact P&S or superzoom cameras
> who want EOS image quality in a small camera.
>
> Canon sees this market as being composed more of women than men.
>
> In some (most?) world markets, the EOS M will be bundled with a small
> flash unit which easily fits in a pocket or handbag and can quickly be
> clipped on when needed.

My sample of one (!) female suggests that the flash unit would simply be
left at home.

"Quickly clipped on when needed" sounds like another opportunity for
missing shots, like having to change lenses....

Different folks, different needs.
--
Cheers,
David
Web: http://www.satsignal.eu

David Taylor <david-> wrote:

>On 14/08/2012 22:47, Bruce wrote:
>[]
>> I think you should ask the people who the EOS M is aimed at.
>>
>> I'll say it again, for the benefit of people who may not have read it
>> before, that the EOS M is almost certainly not aimed at anyone reading
>> Usenet photo newsgroups or enthusiast forums. Canon has stated that
>> it is aimed at people trading up from compact P&S or superzoom cameras
>> who want EOS image quality in a small camera.
>>
>> Canon sees this market as being composed more of women than men.
>>
>> In some (most?) world markets, the EOS M will be bundled with a small
>> flash unit which easily fits in a pocket or handbag and can quickly be
>> clipped on when needed.
>
>My sample of one (!) female suggests that the flash unit would simply be
>left at home.
>
>"Quickly clipped on when needed" sounds like another opportunity for
>missing shots, like having to change lenses....
>
>Different folks, different needs.


True. I was parroting Canon's spiel to dealers. That doesn't mean I
agree with it. I think a built in flash would have been a better
idea, but still retaining the hotshoe so that larger Speedlites could
be used.

Alfred Molon <> wrote:
> In article <079gf9->, Wolfgang
> Weisselberg says...
>> Why?

> Fill flash

M is bundled with an external flash (not in all markets).
Solved.

Or does fill flash only work with P&S cameras where the flash
is inbuilt?

-Wolfgang

David Taylor <david-> wrote:
> On 10/08/2012 21:57, Wolfgang Weisselberg wrote:
>> David Taylor <david-> wrote:

>>> If
>>> Canon is aiming at those stepping up from P&S, not having a built-in
>>> flash will be a reason /not/ to purchase.

>> Why?
>> The P&S *needs* flash for all but full daylight outside, the M
>> can and will do indoors without flash.

> While I can see the space argument, you are wrong about a P&S needing
> flash in all but full daylight.

Tripod (in mild cases stabilizer) and long exposure works, sure.
Or ISO 800+ (and that on a P&S sensor).

> Even a fill-in flash would help the
> aspiring P&S photographer moving to the "M",

.... thus a flash unit is bundled (not in all markets) ...

> so I think the lack of
> built-in flash is a disincentive.

.... for you.

Which typical P&S user uses flash in a creative, directed way?
And which P&S supports that well?

-Wolfgang

On 16/08/2012 17:14, Wolfgang Weisselberg wrote:
> David Taylor <david-> wrote:
>> On 10/08/2012 21:57, Wolfgang Weisselberg wrote:
>>> David Taylor <david-> wrote:
>
>>>> If
>>>> Canon is aiming at those stepping up from P&S, not having a built-in
>>>> flash will be a reason /not/ to purchase.
>
>>> Why?
>>> The P&S *needs* flash for all but full daylight outside, the M
>>> can and will do indoors without flash.
>
>> While I can see the space argument, you are wrong about a P&S needing
>> flash in all but full daylight.
>
> Tripod (in mild cases stabilizer) and long exposure works, sure.
> Or ISO 800+ (and that on a P&S sensor).
>
>> Even a fill-in flash would help the
>> aspiring P&S photographer moving to the "M",
>
> ... thus a flash unit is bundled (not in all markets) ...
>
>> so I think the lack of
>> built-in flash is a disincentive.
>
> ... for you.
>
> Which typical P&S user uses flash in a creative, directed way?
> And which P&S supports that well?
>
> -Wolfgang

My experience is that you don't need a tripod to get satisfactory
results from a P&S in less than "full daylight outside", and if that
were the case, many P&S users would be returning their cameras.

I'm not talking about "creative, directed" use of flash, just that the
P&S user (and even some smartphone users) have come to expect a flash
either for indoors use or perhaps for fill-in. Not having that on the
"M" will lose them a capability. Having to carry around a separate
flash unit (doubtless with its own battery and charger) is a poor
solution (even if you are lucky enough to be offered it free), and
suggests that Canon realise their mistake.

Doubtless it will sell just on the brand name, though.
--
Cheers,
David
Web: http://www.satsignal.eu

David Taylor <david-> wrote:
> On 16/08/2012 17:14, Wolfgang Weisselberg wrote:
>> David Taylor <david-> wrote:

>>> While I can see the space argument, you are wrong about a P&S needing
>>> flash in all but full daylight.

>> Tripod (in mild cases stabilizer) and long exposure works, sure.
>> Or ISO 800+ (and that on a P&S sensor).

>>> Even a fill-in flash would help the
>>> aspiring P&S photographer moving to the "M",

>> ... thus a flash unit is bundled (not in all markets) ...

>>> so I think the lack of
>>> built-in flash is a disincentive.

>> ... for you.

>> Which typical P&S user uses flash in a creative, directed way?
>> And which P&S supports that well?

> My experience is that you don't need a tripod to get satisfactory
> results from a P&S in less than "full daylight outside", and if that
> were the case, many P&S users would be returning their cameras.

- you are easily satisfied
- the P&S are using flash
- the P&S are not shooting people, but static objects and are
using stabilizers and favourable conditions

> I'm not talking about "creative, directed" use of flash, just that the
> P&S user (and even some smartphone users) have come to expect a flash
> either for indoors use

Which the M does not need!

> or perhaps for fill-in.

external flash supplied.

> Not having that on the
> "M" will lose them a capability.

hotshoe built in.

> Having to carry around a separate
> flash unit (doubtless with its own battery and charger)

standard AA or maybe AAA cells.

> is a poor
> solution (even if you are lucky enough to be offered it free), and
> suggests that Canon realise their mistake.

Adding a pop-up flash is an even worse solution:
- there's no room for one (unless you make the camera a lot larger)
- a pop up would have to pop up rather high, which makes the
mechanics of it either weak or large and heavy.
- the battery wouldn't like the additional drain, so you need a
larger battery --- making the camera larger again.
- for most situations a P&S *needs* a flash where the M doesn't.

A larger camera would be less attractive.

> Doubtless it will sell just on the brand name, though.

Doubtless you won't buy it, since you only want cameras with
inbuilt flashes.

-Wolf'proud owner of a flashless camera with a hotshoe'gang