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floating point

 
 
Lew
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      07-26-2012
Gene Wirchenko wrote:
> Lew wrote:
>> Perish the thought that someone starting in Java might not find
>> the JLS all that readable. Perish the thought that someone might be
>> able to explain something better than is done in the JLS.

>
> You prevaricate very well. (prevaricate: to selectively tell the
> truth in order to mislead) I suggest that a Java newbie start with an
> introductory text and use the JLS later.


I never said a newbie should avoid introductory texts. Nor do I suggest
that a newbie rely on the JLS. You have misunderstood my points yet again.

I agree that introductory texts are great to introduce Java.

My objection is to the active discouragement of the use of the JLS.

I recommend that newbies be aware of the JLS and practice reading
it from an early age. That is not so inconsistent with your recommendation.

As for calling me a liar, screw you.

> >I don't demand that anyone read the JLS. I just point out that it has the
> >answers, that for the most part it's readable and that the more obscure parts
> >are amenable to study, and that it's worthwhile. Those who excoriate its use,
> >as opposed to, say, recommending that one work with additional material as
> >well, are leading the rest astray. I really don't understand this rabid
> >rejection of such a useful resource.
>
> But we do not reject it. By stating that we do, you get to score
> points. That sort of behaviour has gotten old.


But you have rejected it, repeatedly.

>
> >Those of you without an irrational fear of the JLS should judge for
> >yourselves. Don't be afraid of it because the Genes of the world are trying to
> >frighten you away from its use. Oh, don't use it as your only source, not even
> >after you've gained familiarity with it and with Java, but by all means use
> >it. Gene is wrong to discourage that.
>
> Again, I do not do that.
>
> Lew, why do you keep turning things into unpleasant arguments?
> There is a big difference between disagreeing and being disagreeable.
> How about trying the former for a change?


How about you stop trying to frighten folks away from the JLS?

If you agree with me that it's a valuable resource of which to be aware,
and that one should aspire to its use eventually, then why do you argue
with me?

It is you who resorts to name calling and unpleasantness. It is a raw
tactic for you to accuse me of being "disagreeable" because you don't
agree that the JLS is a valuable resource. I am disagreeing so adamantly
because your continued speech against it is likely to discourage those
who would most benefit from it. You are performing a disservice to the
Java community, and when called on it, resort to name-calling and
ad hominem attacks.

I am only suggesting a balanced approach wherein from the very
start a Java programmer is aware of the definitive definition of
the language, and of the value of being able to use it. I am astounded
that anyone finds that objectionable, much less resorts to the sort
of underhanded responses in which you engaged.

--
Lew
 
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Gene Wirchenko
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      07-26-2012
On Wed, 25 Jul 2012 17:09:27 -0700 (PDT), Lew <(E-Mail Removed)>
wrote:

>Gene Wirchenko wrote:
>> Lew wrote:
>>> Perish the thought that someone starting in Java might not find
>>> the JLS all that readable. Perish the thought that someone might be
>>> able to explain something better than is done in the JLS.

>>
>> You prevaricate very well. (prevaricate: to selectively tell the
>> truth in order to mislead) I suggest that a Java newbie start with an
>> introductory text and use the JLS later.

>
>I never said a newbie should avoid introductory texts. Nor do I suggest
>that a newbie rely on the JLS. You have misunderstood my points yet again.
>
>I agree that introductory texts are great to introduce Java.


Do you agree that intro texts are not the JLS?

>My objection is to the active discouragement of the use of the JLS.


So which is it? When I state that a newbie should go with intro
texts, I am stating how a newbie should be introduced to Java. The
JLS can come later.

>I recommend that newbies be aware of the JLS and practice reading
>it from an early age. That is not so inconsistent with your recommendation.


No, it is not. I just think that starting with it will cause
more trouble than it is worth.

>As for calling me a liar, screw you.


This is typical. I did not call you a liar. I stated that you
prevaricate. Again, prevaricate: to selectively tell the truth in
order to mislead.

>> &gt;I don't demand that anyone read the JLS. I just point out that it has the
>> &gt;answers, that for the most part it's readable and that the more obscure parts
>> &gt;are amenable to study, and that it's worthwhile. Those who excoriate its use,
>> &gt;as opposed to, say, recommending that one work with additional material as
>> &gt;well, are leading the rest astray. I really don't understand this rabid
>> &gt;rejection of such a useful resource.
>>
>> But we do not reject it. By stating that we do, you get to score
>> points. That sort of behaviour has gotten old.

>
>But you have rejected it, repeatedly.


Only for someone just starting out.

>> &gt;Those of you without an irrational fear of the JLS should judge for
>> &gt;yourselves. Don't be afraid of it because the Genes of the world are trying to
>> &gt;frighten you away from its use. Oh, don't use it as your only source, not even
>> &gt;after you've gained familiarity with it and with Java, but by all means use
>> &gt;it. Gene is wrong to discourage that.
>>
>> Again, I do not do that.
>>
>> Lew, why do you keep turning things into unpleasant arguments?
>> There is a big difference between disagreeing and being disagreeable.
>> How about trying the former for a change?

>
>How about you stop trying to frighten folks away from the JLS?


I do not. I just suggest later, after the intro texts.

>If you agree with me that it's a valuable resource of which to be aware,
>and that one should aspire to its use eventually, then why do you argue
>with me?


That is odd. *I* am the one who keeps stating eventually, and
you keep giving me trouble over it.

>It is you who resorts to name calling and unpleasantness. It is a raw
>tactic for you to accuse me of being "disagreeable" because you don't
>agree that the JLS is a valuable resource. I am disagreeing so adamantly
>because your continued speech against it is likely to discourage those
>who would most benefit from it. You are performing a disservice to the
>Java community, and when called on it, resort to name-calling and
>ad hominem attacks.


"disagreeing adamantly" is often disagreeable. Stating that I
have "an irrational fear of the JLS" is name-calling on your part.

>I am only suggesting a balanced approach wherein from the very
>start a Java programmer is aware of the definitive definition of
>the language, and of the value of being able to use it. I am astounded
>that anyone finds that objectionable, much less resorts to the sort
>of underhanded responses in which you engaged.


Prevarication is underhanded, and you have been busy doing it.

I have consistently stated that a newbie should wait on using the
JLS. I have never stated that it should not be used.

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko
 
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Arne Vajhøj
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      07-26-2012
On 7/25/2012 9:33 AM, Lew wrote:
> Gene Wirchenko wrote:
>> Lew wrote:
>>> For those who decry the use of the JLS to learn this, just note that the
>>> relevant sections are not especially obscure and they answer the
>>> question completely and authoritatively. But feel free to struggle with
>>> alternatives if you really want to work harder.

>>
>> This sort of thing is handled in many introductory programming
>> language texts so it is not harder at all to use them instead.
>>
>>> <http://docs.oracle.com/javase/specs/jls/se7/html/jls-15.html>
>>> <http://docs.oracle.com/javase/specs/jls/se7/html/jls-15.html#jls-15.7>
>>> <http://docs.oracle.com/javase/specs/jls/se7/html/jls-5.html#jls-5.6>
>>> <http://docs.oracle.com/javase/specs/jls/se7/html/jls-5.html#jls-5.6.2>

>>
>> Whereas in a text, it might be "Chapter 3: Datatypes and
>> Operations". A bit simpler, no?

>
> No.
>
> One place to find all the answers, authoritative and final. Versus many
> places of dubious quality that might at best indirectly hint at the
> answer. Victory: JLS.


"authoritative and final" does not imply "not harder" or "simpler".

JLS is by definition the authoritative source and should be consulted
if there are doubt in other sources or implementations.

But it does not mean that a Java beginners guide can not have an easier
to read explanation.

Arne



 
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Jan Burse
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      07-26-2012
Hi,

Gene Wirchenko schrieb:
>> You are performing a disservice to the
>> >Java community, and when called on it, resort to name-calling and
>> >ad hominem attacks.

> "disagreeing adamantly" is often disagreeable. Stating that I
> have "an irrational fear of the JLS" is name-calling on your part.
>


3rd time I observe this already on c.l.j.p today,
troll against troll. It could be only that it is
summertime, and everybody is on the beach except
for the trolls (and me having back pain).

Ha Ha. Nearly makes my day.

Bye
 
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