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A mystery, wrapped in an enigma, etc, etc.

 
 
RichA
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      06-26-2012
Two lenses. One Zeiss, one Leica, both the same focal length. Both
capable of handily exceeding sensor resolution. Both tested on the
same object and one of them beats the other.
How?
 
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Me
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      06-27-2012
On 27/06/2012 8:56 a.m., RichA wrote:
> Two lenses. One Zeiss, one Leica, both the same focal length. Both
> capable of handily exceeding sensor resolution. Both tested on the
> same object and one of them beats the other.
> How?
>

Is this a riddle, or do you have something more to add?

 
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Me
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      06-27-2012
On 27/06/2012 4:55 p.m., Rich wrote:
> Me <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in news:jse3bn$uo9$(E-Mail Removed):
>
>> On 27/06/2012 8:56 a.m., RichA wrote:
>>> Two lenses. One Zeiss, one Leica, both the same focal length. Both
>>> capable of handily exceeding sensor resolution. Both tested on the
>>> same object and one of them beats the other.
>>> How?
>>>

>> Is this a riddle, or do you have something more to add?
>>
>>

>
> Just speculating on something I read. But it is a bit of a riddle.
>

Are you obsessing about "resolution" or is it one of the many other
objective and/or subjective qualities of lenses where one beat the other?

 
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RichA
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      06-27-2012
On Jun 27, 1:21*am, Me <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> On 27/06/2012 4:55 p.m., Rich wrote:> Me <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote innews:jse3bn$uo9$(E-Mail Removed):
>
> >> On 27/06/2012 8:56 a.m., RichA wrote:
> >>> Two lenses. *One Zeiss, one Leica, both the same focal length. *Both
> >>> capable of handily exceeding sensor resolution. *Both tested on the
> >>> same object and one of them beats the other.
> >>> How?

>
> >> Is this a riddle, or do you have something more to add?

>
> > Just speculating on something I read. *But it is a bit of a riddle.

>
> Are you obsessing about "resolution" or is it one of the many other
> objective and/or subjective qualities of lenses where one beat the other?


Resolution only. If both lenses exceed the sensor's capability, how
can one appear to resolve more in images? If the lenses were the
limiting factor, you would likely see differences because the sensor
would still be able to handle them, but since the lenses exceed the
sensor's imaging capabilities, both images should be the same
resolution.
 
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RichA
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      06-27-2012
On Jun 27, 7:58*am, "R. Mark Clayton" <(E-Mail Removed)>
wrote:
> "RichA" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>
> news:(E-Mail Removed)...
>
> > Two lenses. *One Zeiss, one Leica, both the same focal length. *Both
> > capable of handily exceeding sensor resolution. *Both tested on the
> > same object and one of them beats the other.
> > How?

>
> Different aperture maybe?


I don't know. I would assume not, that both lenses would have been
used at their respective "best" apertures.
 
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Bruce
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      06-27-2012
RichA <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>On Jun 27, 1:21*am, Me <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>> On 27/06/2012 4:55 p.m., Rich wrote:> Me <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote innews:jse3bn$uo9$(E-Mail Removed):
>>
>> >> On 27/06/2012 8:56 a.m., RichA wrote:
>> >>> Two lenses. *One Zeiss, one Leica, both the same focal length. *Both
>> >>> capable of handily exceeding sensor resolution. *Both tested on the
>> >>> same object and one of them beats the other.
>> >>> How?

>>
>> >> Is this a riddle, or do you have something more to add?

>>
>> > Just speculating on something I read. *But it is a bit of a riddle.

>>
>> Are you obsessing about "resolution" or is it one of the many other
>> objective and/or subjective qualities of lenses where one beat the other?

>
>Resolution only. If both lenses exceed the sensor's capability, how
>can one appear to resolve more in images? If the lenses were the
>limiting factor, you would likely see differences because the sensor
>would still be able to handle them, but since the lenses exceed the
>sensor's imaging capabilities, both images should be the same
>resolution.




The idea that a sensor has a defined limit of resolution is a fallacy.
Perhaps the claim might have some justification if the world was
composed of rectilinear line pairs, but the real world just isn't like
that.

Even a very basic sensor such as a 6 MP APS-C CCD will record more
detail if a better lens is fitted. Even a poorly performing consumer
grade lens will record more detail if used on a Nikon D3200 (24 MP
APS-C) or D800 (36 MP full frame).

The defined limits that some people enjoy quoting from theory may have
some value for lens designers but they are of little or no relevance
to making images of the real world. And that's why a better lens will
always give better results than a lesser lens even when both have
resolving powers that appear to exceed the theoretical limit of the
sensor.

Of course this won't be apparent to people who only quote from theory
and appear completely incapable of making judgments of any value about
what their eyes are telling them. I don't mean you, Rich.

 
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Chris Malcolm
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      06-27-2012
In rec.photo.digital RichA <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> On Jun 27, 1:21*am, Me <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>> On 27/06/2012 4:55 p.m., Rich wrote:> Me <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote innews:jse3bn$uo9$(E-Mail Removed):
>>
>> >> On 27/06/2012 8:56 a.m., RichA wrote:
>> >>> Two lenses. *One Zeiss, one Leica, both the same focal length. *Both
>> >>> capable of handily exceeding sensor resolution. *Both tested on the
>> >>> same object and one of them beats the other.
>> >>> How?

>>
>> >> Is this a riddle, or do you have something more to add?

>>
>> > Just speculating on something I read. *But it is a bit of a riddle.

>>
>> Are you obsessing about "resolution" or is it one of the many other
>> objective and/or subjective qualities of lenses where one beat the other?


> Resolution only. If both lenses exceed the sensor's capability, how
> can one appear to resolve more in images? If the lenses were the
> limiting factor, you would likely see differences because the sensor
> would still be able to handle them, but since the lenses exceed the
> sensor's imaging capabilities, both images should be the same
> resolution.


Because MTF isn't a sudden cutoff. Nor is the (presumably) Bayer
filter on the sensor. Nor are some of the other limiting factors on
sensor resolution. So even if both lenses have an MTF above the
"limit" of sensor resolution the one which has a higher MTF, plus
higher levels of other parameters associated with resolution, such as
microcontrast, will achieve a higher resolution on the sensor.

They were tested on the same sensor in the same camera, weren't they?

--
Chris Malcolm
 
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RichA
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      06-27-2012
On Jun 27, 10:50*am, Chris Malcolm <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> In rec.photo.digital RichA <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jun 27, 1:21*am, Me <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> >> On 27/06/2012 4:55 p.m., Rich wrote:> Me <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote innews:jse3bn$uo9$(E-Mail Removed):

>
> >> >> On 27/06/2012 8:56 a.m., RichA wrote:
> >> >>> Two lenses. *One Zeiss, one Leica, both the same focal length. *Both
> >> >>> capable of handily exceeding sensor resolution. *Both tested on the
> >> >>> same object and one of them beats the other.
> >> >>> How?

>
> >> >> Is this a riddle, or do you have something more to add?

>
> >> > Just speculating on something I read. *But it is a bit of a riddle..

>
> >> Are you obsessing about "resolution" or is it one of the many other
> >> objective and/or subjective qualities of lenses where one beat the other?

> > Resolution only. *If both lenses exceed the sensor's capability, how
> > can one appear to resolve more in images? *If the lenses were the
> > limiting factor, you would likely see differences because the sensor
> > would still be able to handle them, but since the lenses exceed the
> > sensor's imaging capabilities, both images should be the same
> > resolution.

>
> Because MTF isn't a sudden cutoff. Nor is the (presumably) Bayer
> filter on the sensor. Nor are some of the other limiting factors on
> sensor resolution. So even if both lenses have an MTF above the
> "limit" of sensor resolution the one which has a higher MTF, plus
> higher levels of other parameters associated with resolution, such as
> microcontrast, will achieve a higher resolution on the sensor.
>
> They were tested on the same sensor in the same camera, weren't they?
>
> --
> Chris Malcolm


Yes, the guy just wanted to know which one was a keeper. The Zeiss
won over the Summilux.
He saved about $2500.00 in the process.
 
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Bruce
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      06-27-2012
RichA <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>Yes, the guy just wanted to know which one was a keeper. The Zeiss
>won over the Summilux.
>He saved about $2500.00 in the process.



Which Zeiss? Which Summilux? There are several variants.

Leica M mount or (SL)R mount? I ask because Zeiss doesn't offer an
f/1.4 in M mount.

 
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RichA
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      06-28-2012
On Jun 27, 3:21*pm, Bruce <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> RichA <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> >Yes, the guy just wanted to know which one was a keeper. *The Zeiss
> >won over the Summilux.
> >He saved about $2500.00 in the process.

>
> Which Zeiss? *Which Summilux? *There are several variants.
>
> Leica M mount or (SL)R mount? *I ask because Zeiss doesn't offer an
> f/1.4 in M mount.


Well, that's the annoying part. I read the thing fast and forgot the
URL!! But the general question was what remained. It's like the $4000
fluorite macro lenses (60mm and 100mm) I read about 2 years ago and
can't find word one about now.
 
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