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number and words

 
 
Martin Gregorie
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      05-03-2012
On Wed, 02 May 2012 16:20:48 -0700, Daniel wrote:

> On 2 Maj, 23:23, Roedy Green <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>> On Wed, 2 May 2012 13:55:00 -0700 (PDT), Daniel
>> <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted
>> someone who said :
>>
>> >in english:
>> >123 one hundred twenty three

>>
>> >in german:
>> >123 eins hudrer deiund zwanzig

>>

Surely "ein hundert drei und zwanzig"

or, as a simpler example 21 = "twenty one" or "ein und zwanzig", but it
wasn't all that long ago that English also used the German spoken number
order, as in "a maid of just one and twenty summers"


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |
 
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Gene Wirchenko
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      05-03-2012
On Thu, 03 May 2012 00:06:24 -0500, Leif Roar Moldskred
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>Gene Wirchenko <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>
>> Oh, my! I have not heard of that one. Which languages?

>
>Fairly esoteric languages in this context I'll admit. Mostly some
>Nigerian languages, but also the Chepal language in Nepal. There are
>several other bases in use by languages though, with (in addition to
>base 10) base 5 and base 20 the most common.


Are you sure about the spelling for "Chepal"? I tried to find
something on it to no avail.

I recall one science fiction novel with parallel universes that
had one that had a base 8 numbering system. <look look> "The Coming
of the Quantum Cats" by Frederik Pohl.

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko
 
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Gene Wirchenko
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      05-03-2012
On Thu, 03 May 2012 12:00:16 -0500, Leif Roar Moldskred
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>Gene Wirchenko <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>
>> Are you sure about the spelling for "Chepal"? I tried to find
>> something on it to no avail.

>
>My bad, it's "Chepang."


Thank you.

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko
 
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Lew
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      05-03-2012
On Thursday, May 3, 2012 2:03:16 AM UTC-7, RedGrittyBrick wrote:
> On 03/05/2012 00:13, Lew wrote:
> > Roedy Green wrote:
> >> Daniel wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said :
> >>
> >>> in english [sic]:
> >>> 123 one hundred twenty three

> >
> > "One hundred twenty-three" [sic]
> >

>
> In Englishâ€*:
> "One hundred *and* twenty three"
>
> --
> RGB
> â€* English English, as it is spoken in England. This bit anyway. Currently.


In American English the "and" is optional, but the hyphen in "twenty-three"is part of the spelling.

From <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_numerals>:
"Note that in American English, many students are taught not to use the word and anywhere in the whole part of a number, so it is not used before the tens and ones. It is instead used as a verbal delimiter when dealing with compound numbers. Thus, instead of "three hundred and seventy-three", one would say "three hundred seventy-three". For details, see American and British English differences."

So the usage /sic/ /supra/ is legit in my part of the world.

--
Lew
 
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Roedy Green
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      05-03-2012
On Wed, 2 May 2012 16:13:48 -0700 (PDT), Lew <(E-Mail Removed)>
wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said :

>Another approach would be to expand into one language, e.g., English, then =
>use resource bundles to translate those words into other languages. I don't=
> know how effective this would be.


That's what I hoped would be true when I started writing that code. I
thought I would need a common skeleton just with different constants
for thousand etc.

But it turns out they are crazy irregular.

Have a look at Icelandic.
https://wush.net/websvn/mindprod/fil...Icelandic.java

or Polish.
https://wush.net/websvn/mindprod/fil...Icelandic.java

compared with AmericanEnglish
https://wush.net/websvn/mindprod/fil...anEnglish.java

compared with the regularity of Esperanto
https://wush.net/websvn/mindprod/fil...Esperanto.java

I have not done it yet, but I suspect Mandarin may be simpler still.

you can play with these only at
http://mindprod.com/inwords/InWords.html
typing in number to see the words in any language.
--
Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products
http://mindprod.com
Programmers love to create simplified replacements for HTML.
They forget that the simplest language is the one you
already know. They also forget that their simple little
markup language will bit by bit become even more convoluted
and complicated than HTML because of the unplanned way it grows.
..
 
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Roedy Green
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      05-03-2012
On Thu, 3 May 2012 15:12:25 +0000 (UTC), Martin Gregorie
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted
someone who said :

>or, as a simpler example 21 = "twenty one" or "ein und zwanzig", but it
>wasn't all that long ago that English also used the German spoken number
>order, as in "a maid of just one and twenty summers"


not all that long ago...

A. E. Housman (1859 1936). A Shropshire Lad. 1896.

XIII. When I was one-and-twenty


WHEN I was one-and-twenty
I heard a wise man say,
‘Give crowns and pounds and guineas
But not your heart away;

Give pearls away and rubies
But keep your fancy free
But I was one-and-twenty,
No use to talk to me.

When I was one-and-twenty
I heard him say again,
‘The heart out of the bosom
Was never given in vain;
’Tis paid with sighs a plenty
And sold for endless rue.’
And I am two-and-twenty,
And oh, ’tis true, ’tis true.

When I wrote InWords, I found native speakers arguing about how
various numbers should be expressed. Perhaps these rules are not
written down in some official place. They may be like local dialects.

For Dutch, to settle the disputes I ended up writing Dutch, Old Dutch
and Bankers' Dutch variants. Similarly there are two Spanish variants.

Naming pairs of groups of animals is called the art of venery, e.g. a
brace of pheasants. Knights would haze pages for not having this all
memorized. See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/venery.html

I wonder why number pronunciations are so needlessly complicated. It
could be for similar hazing, class distinction, or perhaps to make
numbers more distinct so they could be communicated under less than
ideal conditions. It is not just numbers. It is grammar, pronouns,
irregular verbs. They are more complicated that necessary lacking
symmetry. Children, when they are learning the language try to
correct it.

--
Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products
http://mindprod.com
Programmers love to create simplified replacements for HTML.
They forget that the simplest language is the one you
already know. They also forget that their simple little
markup language will bit by bit become even more convoluted
and complicated than HTML because of the unplanned way it grows.
..
 
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Tom McGlynn
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      05-03-2012
On May 3, 5:28*pm, Roedy Green <(E-Mail Removed)>
wrote:
> On Thu, 3 May 2012 15:12:25 +0000 (UTC), Martin Gregorie
> <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted
> someone who said :
>
> >or, as a simpler example 21 = "twenty one" or "ein und zwanzig", but it
> >wasn't all that long ago that English also used the German spoken number
> >order, as in "a maid of just one and twenty summers"

>
> not all that long ago...
>
> A. E. Housman (1859 1936). *A Shropshire Lad. *1896.
>
>

Naively, I'd have suggested that formal poetry may not be the best
place to see what common usage was. However Google's Ngram viewer
suggests that it is only after the world wars that twenty one became
more common than one and twenty. (Same for one and thirty versus
thirty one). This shift may really be quite recent.

Regards,
Tom McGlynn
 
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glen herrmannsfeldt
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      05-04-2012
Lew <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

(snip)

> From <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_numerals>:
> "Note that in American English, many students are taught not to
> use the word and anywhere in the whole part of a number,
> so it is not used before the tens and ones. It is instead
> used as a verbal delimiter when dealing with compound numbers.


Specifically, for writing the number of dollars on checks.
(Maybe different on cheques.) The cents (xx/100) comes after the and.

> Thus, instead of "three hundred and seventy-three", one would
> say "three hundred seventy-three". For details, see American and
> British English differences."


-- glen
 
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Lew
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      05-04-2012
glen herrmannsfeldt wrote:
> Lew wrote:
>
> (snip)
>
>> From <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_numerals>:
>> "Note that in American English, many students are taught not to
>> use the word and anywhere in the whole part of a number,
>> so it is not used before the tens and ones. It is instead
>> used as a verbal delimiter when dealing with compound numbers.

>
> Specifically, for writing the number of dollars on checks.
> (Maybe different on cheques.) The cents (xx/100) comes after the and.


That's not "and" inside a number name, but between a number name and a numeral representation. Different case.

--
Lew
 
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glen herrmannsfeldt
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      05-04-2012
Lew <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
(snip, someone wrote)

>>> "Note that in American English, many students are taught not to
>>> use the word and anywhere in the whole part of a number,
>>> so it is not used before the tens and ones. It is instead
>>> used as a verbal delimiter when dealing with compound numbers.


>> Specifically, for writing the number of dollars on checks.
>> (Maybe different on cheques.) The cents (xx/100) comes after
>> the and.


> That's not "and" inside a number name, but between a number name
> and a numeral representation. Different case.


Yes, but it only works if you don't put an "and" inside the number.
(That is, "and" is the delimiter for the dollar amount.)

-- glen
 
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