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qooxlisp live

 
 
Kenneth Tilton
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Posts: n/a
 
      06-07-2010
The qooxlisp apropos example can now actually be run here (ignore the
site name):

http://www.teamalgebra.com/

For additional laughs, the server is running on a $2/day Amazon EC2
Fedora Core 8. So it might disappear spontaneously.

Unfortunately I am intermittently having FireFox/IE* not want to
acknowledge when I hit Enter, in which case you won't be able to play
much. I'll investigate and/or put the search button back in to beat the
thing into submission.

kt

* I just got a report of a Chrome user having the same problem, so I am
starting to think I am sometimes** sending the JS over such that it runs
in the wrong order.

** Cells by default orders non-deterministically. There is a mechanism
for corralling the beast where this ****es off an external library, but
these cases have to be identified and coded for. Methinks I have such a
case -- browsers that generally do not work have been observed to work.
Then not again.

kt

--
http://www.stuckonalgebra.com
"The best Algebra tutorial program I have seen... in a class by itself."
Macworld
 
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Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn
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Posts: n/a
 
      06-07-2010
Kenneth Tilton wrote:

> The qooxlisp apropos example can now actually be run here (ignore the
> site name):
>
> http://www.teamalgebra.com/
>
> For additional laughs, the server is running on a $2/day Amazon EC2
> Fedora Core 8. So it might disappear spontaneously.
>
> Unfortunately I am intermittently having FireFox/IE* not want to
> acknowledge when I hit Enter, in which case you won't be able to play
> much. I'll investigate and/or put the search button back in to beat the
> thing into submission.


A ca. 3 MiB(!) download thanks to 344 HTTP requests (including 333(!)
requests for script resources, which amount to ca. 3 MiB) that takes 1 min
48 s(!) to load on a very broad Internet connection and a considerably fast
system. And when it has finally loaded it shows only a simple form that
stalls Iceweasel (Firefox): "A script on this page may be busy, or it may
have stopped respnding ...". And you are saying this is but an *example*?

Either you are not serious or you are completely nuts.

In any case, thanks for showing us why not to use qooxdoo and code based on
it.


PointedEars
--
Anyone who slaps a 'this page is best viewed with Browser X' label on
a Web page appears to be yearning for the bad old days, before the Web,
when you had very little chance of reading a document written on another
computer, another word processor, or another network. -- Tim Berners-Lee
 
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Gregor Kofler
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Posts: n/a
 
      06-07-2010
Am 2010-06-07 22:26, Kenneth Tilton meinte:
> The qooxlisp apropos example can now actually be run here (ignore the
> site name):
>
> http://www.teamalgebra.com/
>
> For additional laughs, the server is running on a $2/day Amazon EC2
> Fedora Core 8. So it might disappear spontaneously.
>
> Unfortunately I am intermittently having FireFox/IE* not want to
> acknowledge when I hit Enter, in which case you won't be able to play
> much. I'll investigate and/or put the search button back in to beat the
> thing into submission.
>
> kt
>
> * I just got a report of a Chrome user having the same problem, so I am
> starting to think I am sometimes** sending the JS over such that it runs
> in the wrong order.
>
> ** Cells by default orders non-deterministically. There is a mechanism
> for corralling the beast where this ****es off an external library, but
> these cases have to be identified and coded for. Methinks I have such a
> case -- browsers that generally do not work have been observed to work.
> Then not again.


*Now* I get the picture. This is some large scale proof by you, that
qooxdoo is the usual library crap and cannot be recommended. Smart. You
are putting a lot of effort into that. I'm sorry that I can't admire
your work, but loading the page just takes too long...

Gregor


--
http://www.gregorkofler.com
 
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Kenneth Tilton
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Posts: n/a
 
      06-07-2010
Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn wrote:
> Kenneth Tilton wrote:
>
>> The qooxlisp apropos example can now actually be run here (ignore the
>> site name):
>>
>> http://www.teamalgebra.com/
>>
>> For additional laughs, the server is running on a $2/day Amazon EC2
>> Fedora Core 8. So it might disappear spontaneously.
>>
>> Unfortunately I am intermittently having FireFox/IE* not want to
>> acknowledge when I hit Enter, in which case you won't be able to play
>> much. I'll investigate and/or put the search button back in to beat the
>> thing into submission.

>
> A ca. 3 MiB(!) download


Wow, I better do a "release build" after all. Stay tuned.

> thanks to 344 HTTP requests (including 333(!)
> requests for script resources, which amount to ca. 3 MiB) that takes 1 min
> 48 s(!) to load on a very broad Internet connection and a considerably fast
> system.


I can load in 4-5s. Sometimes a browser and my (lisp) server do not get
along and the server feeds files in a trickle, like 3/sec. Have not
figured out what that is all about, but resetting the browser works (at
least for Safari).


> And when it has finally loaded it shows only a simple form that
> stalls Iceweasel (Firefox): "A script on this page may be busy, or it may
> have stopped respnding ...". And you are saying this is but an *example*?
>
> Either you are not serious or you are completely nuts.
>
> In any case, thanks for showing us why not to use qooxdoo and code based on
> it.


It's what I live for, confirming your unthinking prejudices.

kt

--
http://www.stuckonalgebra.com
"The best Algebra tutorial program I have seen... in a class by itself."
Macworld
 
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Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn
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Posts: n/a
 
      06-07-2010
Kenneth Tilton wrote:

> Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn wrote:
>> Kenneth Tilton wrote:
>>> The qooxlisp apropos example can now actually be run here (ignore the
>>> site name):
>>>
>>> http://www.teamalgebra.com/
>>> [...]

>>
>> A ca. 3 MiB(!) download

>
> Wow, I better do a "release build" after all. Stay tuned.


That wouldn't increase the overall code quality, would it?

>> thanks to 344 HTTP requests (including 333(!)
>> requests for script resources, which amount to ca. 3 MiB) that takes 1
>> min 48 s(!) to load on a very broad Internet connection and a
>> considerably fast system.

>
> I can load in 4-5s. [...]


I hate to break this to you, stupid, but you are really not alone on the Net
or on client systems. Loading 3 MiB in 4 to 5 seconds requires a constant
transfer rate of 614.5 to 768 KiB/s (not kbps; you may want to look up
common transfer rates, especially on mobiles). Good luck finding someone to
save all their bandwidth for your crappy scripts (you're going to need it).


PointedEars
--
Anyone who slaps a 'this page is best viewed with Browser X' label on
a Web page appears to be yearning for the bad old days, before the Web,
when you had very little chance of reading a document written on another
computer, another word processor, or another network. -- Tim Berners-Lee
 
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RobG
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Posts: n/a
 
      06-07-2010
On Jun 8, 6:26 am, Kenneth Tilton <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> The qooxlisp apropos example can now actually be run here (ignore the
> site name):
>
> http://www.teamalgebra.com/


With javascript disabled, it shows a blank page.

Enabling javascript, the page took nearly 4 minutes to load.
Downloading 335 files totalling 3MB is going to take a very long time
on any system.

Once viewed, the page is dysfunctional in both Firefox 3.6 and IE 6. I
can't get it to do anything, are there instructions?


[...]
> Unfortunately I am intermittently having FireFox/IE* not want to
> acknowledge when I hit Enter, in which case you won't be able to play
> much.


"Intermittent" is an understatement, it doesn't work at all.


> I'll investigate and/or put the search button back in to beat the
> thing into submission.


You knew it was dysfunctional but posted a link anyway. Thanks.


[...]
> --http://www.stuckonalgebra.com


Presumably you have some relationship with that site. Even though it
is HTML 4.01 Transitional, the W3C validator finds 27 errors.


> "The best Algebra tutorial program I have seen... in a class by itself."
> Macworld


Quotes without meaningful attribution make me suspicious.

According to the "stuckonalgebra" site, there is no Mac version, which
left me wondering what was reviwed and when, given that Macworld is a
Mac-specific magazine. A search revealed that the quote is from a
superficial review[1] of "Algebra I Homework Tutor from Missing Link
Software" in April 1991.

There seems to be a pattern here that does not leave a good
impression.


1. <URL: http://www.theoryyalgebra.com/macworld.html >


--
Rob
 
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Kenneth Tilton
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      06-08-2010
RobG wrote:
> On Jun 8, 6:26 am, Kenneth Tilton <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>> The qooxlisp apropos example can now actually be run here (ignore the
>> site name):
>>
>> http://www.teamalgebra.com/

>
> With javascript disabled, it shows a blank page.


Possibly related to this being a javascript library? The next version
has a noscript chunk to help you out.

>
> Enabling javascript, the page took nearly 4 minutes to load.


I get that, too, sometimes. Not sure what's going on. Possibly the
server is being silly, because other times it loads in 4-5s.

What browser/OS?

> Downloading 335 files totalling 3MB is going to take a very long time
> on any system.


No, I normally get 4-5s. Any time it hangs I reset the browser (not that
that should be necessary) and then I get 4-5s.

Anyway, I just did a "release build" and it's one file, 989kb. Not
nothing, but should be even better.

>
> Once viewed, the page is dysfunctional in both Firefox 3.6 and IE 6. I
> can't get it to do anything, are there instructions?


I am starting to think it's my bug. The next release will have a
"Search" button I suspect will work so you can at least have some fun.
I'll try adding some instructions to the page itself.

>
>
> [...]
>> Unfortunately I am intermittently having FireFox/IE* not want to
>> acknowledge when I hit Enter, in which case you won't be able to play
>> much.

>
> "Intermittent" is an understatement, it doesn't work at all.


I know the feeling, but messing around at one point it did start working
in both.

>
>
>> I'll investigate and/or put the search button back in to beat the
>> thing into submission.

>
> You knew it was dysfunctional but posted a link anyway. Thanks.


I try.

>
>
> [...]
>> --http://www.stuckonalgebra.com

>
> Presumably you have some relationship with that site. Even though it
> is HTML 4.01 Transitional, the W3C validator finds 27 errors.


Go flame Yahoo SiteBuilder.

>
>
>> "The best Algebra tutorial program I have seen... in a class by itself."
>> Macworld

>
> Quotes without meaningful attribution make me suspicious.


You never heard of Macworld?

>
> According to the "stuckonalgebra" site, there is no Mac version,


The Mac does not have Web browsers? You have a scoop.

> which
> left me wondering what was reviwed and when, given that Macworld is a
> Mac-specific magazine. A search revealed that the quote is from a
> superficial review[1] of "Algebra I Homework Tutor from Missing Link
> Software" in April 1991.


If "in a class by itself" is superficial, I'll take it.



--
http://www.stuckonalgebra.com
"The best Algebra tutorial program I have seen... in a class by itself."
Macworld
 
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Kenneth Tilton
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      06-08-2010
Gregor Kofler wrote:
> Am 2010-06-07 22:26, Kenneth Tilton meinte:
>> The qooxlisp apropos example can now actually be run here (ignore the
>> site name):
>>
>> http://www.teamalgebra.com/
>>
>> For additional laughs, the server is running on a $2/day Amazon EC2
>> Fedora Core 8. So it might disappear spontaneously.
>>
>> Unfortunately I am intermittently having FireFox/IE* not want to
>> acknowledge when I hit Enter, in which case you won't be able to play
>> much. I'll investigate and/or put the search button back in to beat the
>> thing into submission.
>>
>> kt
>>
>> * I just got a report of a Chrome user having the same problem, so I am
>> starting to think I am sometimes** sending the JS over such that it runs
>> in the wrong order.
>>
>> ** Cells by default orders non-deterministically. There is a mechanism
>> for corralling the beast where this ****es off an external library, but
>> these cases have to be identified and coded for. Methinks I have such a
>> case -- browsers that generally do not work have been observed to work.
>> Then not again.

>
> *Now* I get the picture. This is some large scale proof by you, that
> qooxdoo is the usual library crap and cannot be recommended. Smart. You
> are putting a lot of effort into that. I'm sorry that I can't admire
> your work, but loading the page just takes too long...


I am so surprised to discover you are drawing conclusions that align
with what you believed before.

kt

--
http://www.stuckonalgebra.com
"The best Algebra tutorial program I have seen... in a class by itself."
Macworld
 
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Scott Sauyet
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Posts: n/a
 
      06-08-2010
Kenneth Tilton wrote:
> RobG wrote:
>> On Jun 8, 6:26 am, Kenneth Tilton <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>> The qooxlisp apropos example can now actually be run here (ignore the
>>> site name):

>
>>> * *http://www.teamalgebra.com/

>
>> With javascript disabled, it shows a blank page.

>
> Possibly related to this being a javascript library? The next version
> has a noscript chunk to help you out.


>
>> Enabling javascript, the page took nearly 4 minutes to load.

>
> I get that, too, sometimes. Not sure what's going on. Possibly the
> server is being silly, because other times it loads in 4-5s.



I tested with a very fast connection and fast computer, and it never
loaded in less than 8 seconds. Testing now at home over a mediocre
DSL, it's around 100 seconds on an empty cache.

>> Downloading 335 files totalling 3MB is going to take a very long time
>> on any system.

>
> No, I normally get 4-5s. Any time it hangs I reset the browser (not that
> that should be necessary) and then I get 4-5s.
>
> Anyway, I just did a "release build" and it's one file, 989kb. Not
> nothing, but should be even better.


There are regular complaints on this group about the size of a 70KB
(unzipped) file. Is all that really necessary for this relatively
simple page?


>>> I'll investigate and/or put the search button back in to beat the
>>> thing into submission.

>
>> You knew it was dysfunctional but posted a link anyway. Thanks.

>
> I try.


You try to what, annoy the hell out of everyone here?


>> [...]
>>> --http://www.stuckonalgebra.com

>
>> Presumably you have some relationship with that site. Even though it
>> is HTML 4.01 Transitional, the W3C validator finds 27 errors.

>
> Go flame Yahoo SiteBuilder.


Or better yet, the person who posted it as an example...


>>> "The best Algebra tutorial program I have seen... in a class by itself."
>>> Macworld

>
>> Quotes without meaningful attribution make me suspicious.

>
> You never heard of Macworld?


http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Th...e:macworld.com

returns no results... Do you have a more detailed reference?


>> According to the "stuckonalgebra" site, there is no Mac version,

>
> The Mac does not have Web browsers? You have a scoop.


>> which
>> left me wondering what was reviwed and when, given that Macworld is a
>> Mac-specific magazine. A search revealed that the quote is from a
>> superficial review[1] of "Algebra I Homework Tutor from Missing Link
>> Software" in April 1991.

>
> If "in a class by itself" is superficial, I'll take it.


Are you telling us that this ran on a Mac web browser in 1991?

--
Scott
 
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RobG
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Posts: n/a
 
      06-08-2010
On Jun 8, 11:27 am, Kenneth Tilton <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> RobG wrote:
> > On Jun 8, 6:26 am, Kenneth Tilton <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> >> The qooxlisp apropos example can now actually be run here (ignore the
> >> site name):

>
> >> http://www.teamalgebra.com/

>
> > With javascript disabled, it shows a blank page.

>
> Possibly related to this being a javascript library? The next version
> has a noscript chunk to help you out.


Good, but even better would be to have a plain HTML page that at least
has some information about what the site is about, what it is supposed
to demonstrate and some examples of its use.


> > Enabling javascript, the page took nearly 4 minutes to load.

>
> I get that, too, sometimes. Not sure what's going on. Possibly the
> server is being silly, because other times it loads in 4-5s.


As Thomas said, if you think 3MB will take 5 seconds to load, you want
approximately 25Mb to download at about 5mb/s. That's not including
the 355 HTTP requests, intermediate browser processing, dropped
packets, headers, etc. You are depending on caching quite a bit. Your
(missing) introduction page could explain some of that so at least
users are aware of the possible lengthy delay before making a decision
about proceeding.


> What browser/OS?


The browsers are below, the OS is Windows XP.


> > Downloading 335 files totalling 3MB is going to take a very long time
> > on any system.

>
> No, I normally get 4-5s. Any time it hangs I reset the browser (not that
> that should be necessary) and then I get 4-5s.


What do you mean by "reset"? Restart? Close a tab and re-open? Clear
the cache?


> Anyway, I just did a "release build" and it's one file, 989kb. Not
> nothing, but should be even better.


That should help, but will still require quite a bit of time and users
should be warned so they can make their own decision about whether or
not to proceed.


> > Once viewed, the page is dysfunctional in both Firefox 3.6 and IE 6. I
> > can't get it to do anything, are there instructions?

>
> I am starting to think it's my bug. The next release will have a
> "Search" button I suspect will work so you can at least have some fun.
> I'll try adding some instructions to the page itself.


Or to an introduction page that can be left open in another tab or
window at the user's discretion.


[...]
> >> --http://www.stuckonalgebra.com

[...]
> >> "The best Algebra tutorial program I have seen... in a class by itself."
> >> Macworld

>
> > Quotes without meaningful attribution make me suspicious.

>
> You never heard of Macworld?


Yes, but the attribution is incomplete (and the reader is left
wondering why).


> > According to the "stuckonalgebra" site, there is no Mac version,

>
> The Mac does not have Web browsers? You have a scoop.


Whether or not there are browsers for Mac OS is irrelevant. I can't
find a link to a web version on that site, all links eventually lead
to a download page that states:

| Pick your operating system:
| 1. Windows XP
| 2. Windows Vista or Windows 7
| 3. Mac OS X (coming soon!)

The site does not offer a browser version and *states* that there is
no Mac version. Whether there are browsers for Mac OS is irrelevant at
this point.


> > which
> > left me wondering what was reviwed and when, given that Macworld is a
> > Mac-specific magazine. A search revealed that the quote is from a
> > superficial review[1] of "Algebra I Homework Tutor from Missing Link
> > Software" in April 1991.

>
> If "in a class by itself" is superficial, I'll take it.


The *review* is superficial and nearly 20 years old, before the WWW
was invented. Even if there is a web-based version available now, the
review is of an entirely different product from an eon ago and
therefore irrelevant.

It's like IBM claiming technical competence based on a 1930s review of
their electric accounting machine[1].

1. <URL: http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/ex...506VV9012.html
>



--
Rob
 
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