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jQuery Attribute Summit--Latest Coverage

 
 
Garrett Smith
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Posts: n/a
 
      12-21-2009
Scott Sauyet wrote:
> On Dec 21, 8:59 am, Erwin Moller
> <Since_humans_read_this_I_am_spammed_too_m...@spam yourself.com> wrote:
>> David Mark schreef:
>>> [quoting John Resig] "I was 100% serious about a ban concerning
>>> everything from CLJ. Please, original ideas/concerns/bug reports/
>>> test cases only."
>>> "Seems petty to me. There is a good test case there that illustrates
>>> the problem. I'm not going to reproduce it to shelter jQuery from CLJ"

>> ReMARKable statements.
>> [ ... ]
>> Anyway, strange folk over there: This all sounds much like censorship to me.

>
> A little additional context from that thread. Matt Kruse had pointed
> the jQuery team to David Mark's attribute tests, and John Resig had
> taken the first steps at incorporating them into the jQuery test
> suite. Then, some posts before the above quote, Resig posted this:
>
> | Just got word from Paul Irish that David Mark is refusing to
> provide
> | an open license for his attribute test suite - in fact he's
> | threatening legal action against me and the Software Freedom
> | Conservancy if we should "cop[y] one word or the tiniest aspect of
> | the design". Naturally, that branch with the test suite has been
> | completely deleted.
>
> I have no idea if Resig's or Irish's understanding is correct. But
> if David Mark actually made such a threat, it goes a long way
> towards explaining, if not condoning, Resig's attitude.


Anyone who wants to read c.l.js, but wants to filter messages from a
particular poster may can add an entry to the killfile.

There is not one group attitude here.

John Resig doesn't want to read posts from myself, Lasse, Cornford,
Lahn, Kruse, Jorge, VK, Stockton, or *whoever*, that is *his business*.
I've argued with all of these posters on different points in the past.

Admonishing an entire newsgroup for one person's actions is unfair. More
front end developers should read comp.lang.javascript. Jquery users
especially should read c.l.js. That way they can learn another
perspective on programming RIAs from javascript programmers who do not
use jQuery, hopefully to realize that they don't really need jQuery
after all.

Discouraging others from reading c.l.js might have the effect of keeping
people in the dark.

If learning about javascript is a goal, comp.lang.javascript is the
right place to be.
--
Garrett
comp.lang.javascript FAQ: http://jibbering.com/faq/
 
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RobG
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Posts: n/a
 
      12-21-2009
On Dec 22, 5:23*am, "S.T." <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> On 12/21/2009 5:59 AM, Erwin Moller wrote:
>
> > ReMARKable statements.
> > Does c.l.j. equal 'David Mark' in their minds?

>
> I suspect clj is more attributed to wasted overkill, as in a twenty-one
> post thread about trimming whitespace.


How about a 12 post thread on "What is the event when a user presses
the enter key anywhere on the page?"

<URL: http://groups.google.com/group/jquer...6ead50d1a73f7#
>



> It's a good place to argue and maybe pick up a thing or two amongst the
> shrapnel, but that's about it. It's not an 'end result' type of place if
> you're looking to accomplish something.


As oppposed to the jQuery GG where more than 30% of posts never get a
response at all. Those that are lucky enough to get an answer are
often given awful advice or plain guess-work.


> > Anyway, strange folk over there: This all sounds much like censorship to
> > me.
> > They did ban you earlier from their fora, right?

>
> If they haven't, they probably should. He whines for a year about an
> aspect of the library then, when they say "hmmm... ok, we'll look into
> that", they get threatened with a lawsuit in the event a test case
> possibly resembles his?


Given that post by Resig and the response here, do you still believe
that statement? I considered the lawsuit phrase a bit of rhetoric.


> Not exactly a useful contributor.


I beg to differ.

> Look at it from their perspective... why would you not just write him
> off as a troll?


Because he offers technically sound advice? This is a news group, not
a fan club. There are and have been a number of posters here who have
could be considered abrasive, sometimes rude - however if their advice
is sound it is worth taking note of or at least investigating further.


--
Rob
 
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S.T.
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      12-22-2009
On 12/21/2009 3:42 PM, RobG wrote:
>> I suspect clj is more attributed to wasted overkill, as in a twenty-one
>> post thread about trimming whitespace.

>
> How about a 12 post thread on "What is the event when a user presses
> the enter key anywhere on the page?"
>
> <URL: http://groups.google.com/group/jquer...6ead50d1a73f7#
>>


Your referenced thread answers several questions in a (relatively)
straight forward manner. There doesn't seem to be much cruft in there.

The thread I referenced went absurdly technical given the nature of the
topic and, in classic CLJ manner came complete with chastisements for
posting style and other general ass-hattery.

Contrasting the two pretty clearly illustrates my point.

That's not to say this newsgroup is useless. There's a need to discuss
javascript in a rigorous academic-type setting. But it's not for the
masses and a developer with an average knowledge who comes here asking
questions one isn't likely to find results -- just more confusion
coupled with berating.

This group is fine the way it is, but shouldn't promote itself as
something it is not. It is not a friendly, helpful community -- rather
it's an isolated group that will happily berate those that try to
accomplish goals in a manner the few regulars here believe to be a less
efficient approach.

>
>> It's a good place to argue and maybe pick up a thing or two amongst the
>> shrapnel, but that's about it. It's not an 'end result' type of place if
>> you're looking to accomplish something.

>
> As oppposed to the jQuery GG where more than 30% of posts never get a
> response at all.


Tough to answer. I've never struggled to get jQuery help. Admittedly, I
haven't needed much which is sort of why I utilize jQuery to begin with.
All I can say is if getting jQuery support is a flaw, it's not one I've
heard of.

> Those that are lucky enough to get an answer are
> often given awful advice or plain guess-work.


Well, since you view jQuery as awful, any jQuery-based answer would
almost by definition be awful in your opinion. Sorry I can't take your
criticism at face value.

Granted, they could come here and be told to scrap jQuery and build a
test suite to figure out the most efficient and reliable means to do
something complicated -- like trim whitespace -- but that goes back to
my 'overkill' belief.

>
>>> Anyway, strange folk over there: This all sounds much like censorship to
>>> me.
>>> They did ban you earlier from their fora, right?

>>
>> If they haven't, they probably should. He whines for a year about an
>> aspect of the library then, when they say "hmmm... ok, we'll look into
>> that", they get threatened with a lawsuit in the event a test case
>> possibly resembles his?

>
> Given that post by Resig and the response here, do you still believe
> that statement? I considered the lawsuit phrase a bit of rhetoric.


Having met neither in person, I can only gauge from what I've read of
them. Resig has always come off as personable and helpful. Mark often
comes off as a raving loon with some bizarre vendetta against an
inanimate javascript library, albeit a raving loon who knows javascript.

I wasn't privy to the emails exchanged but if you're asking me to play
the odds, I'll say David Mark was likely the one who started tossing
hyperbole.

Appears Mark was quoted... was he misquoted? I'm sure he'll chime in as
the work 'jQuery' appears in this post.
--
Just got word from Paul Irish that David Mark is refusing to provide
an open license for his attribute test suite - in fact he's
threatening legal action against me and the Software Freedom
Conservancy if we should "cop[y] one word or the tiniest aspect of the
design". Naturally, that branch with the test suite has been
completely deleted.
--

It's his work and he's certainly free to defend it. Just don't go
ranting about flaws as you throw up roadblocks when authors look to take
your advice.

>> Not exactly a useful contributor.

>
> I beg to differ.
>
>> Look at it from their perspective... why would you not just write him
>> off as a troll?

>
> Because he offers technically sound advice? This is a news group, not
> a fan club. There are and have been a number of posters here who have
> could be considered abrasive, sometimes rude - however if their advice
> is sound it is worth taking note of or at least investigating further.


His online persona is an egotistical d-bag. Maybe in real life he's a
happy-go-lucky sort of guy that everyone loves -- who knows? But if
you've got a team of volunteers developing an already wildly-successful
library -- do you really make an effort to incorporate, as you *mildly*
put it, "abrasive, sometimes rude" into the mix to try and filter sound
advice toward solving problems that almost no one appears to be having?

 
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David Mark
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      12-22-2009
On Dec 21, 8:51*pm, "S.T." <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> On 12/21/2009 3:42 PM, RobG wrote:
>
> >> I suspect clj is more attributed to wasted overkill, as in a twenty-one
> >> post thread about trimming whitespace.

>
> > How about a 12 post thread on "What is the event when a user presses
> > the enter key anywhere on the page?"

>
> > <URL:http://groups.google.com/group/jquer...ead/bb36ead50d...

>
> Your referenced thread answers several questions in a (relatively)
> straight forward manner. There doesn't seem to be much cruft in there.


LOL. Read the last post again.

>
> The thread I referenced went absurdly technical given the nature of the
> topic and, in classic CLJ manner came complete with chastisements for
> posting style and other general ass-hattery.


Feel free to skip posting style advice.

>
> Contrasting the two pretty clearly illustrates my point.


Not really. Of course, you don't really have a point to begin with.

>
> That's not to say this newsgroup is useless. There's a need to discuss
> javascript in a rigorous academic-type setting. But it's not for the
> masses and a developer with an average knowledge who comes here asking
> questions one isn't likely to find results -- just more confusion
> coupled with berating.


Wrong. Read more, write less.

>
> This group is fine the way it is, but shouldn't promote itself as
> something it is not.


I don't know of any ongoing promotions.

> It is not a friendly, helpful community -- rather
> it's an isolated group that will happily berate those that try to


No more isolated than jQuery's mailing list.

> accomplish goals in a manner the few regulars here believe to be a less
> efficient approach.


Like using jQuery?

>
>
>
> >> It's a good place to argue and maybe pick up a thing or two amongst the
> >> shrapnel, but that's about it. It's not an 'end result' type of place if
> >> you're looking to accomplish something.

>
> > As oppposed to the jQuery GG where more than 30% of posts never get a
> > response at all.

>
> Tough to answer. I've never struggled to get jQuery help.


Aren't you lucky.

> Admittedly, I
> haven't needed much which is sort of why I utilize jQuery to begin with.


It's magic!

> All I can say is if getting jQuery support is a flaw, it's not one I've
> heard of.


Where have you been?

>
> > Those that are lucky enough to get an answer are
> > often given awful advice or plain guess-work.

>
> Well, since you view jQuery as awful, any jQuery-based answer would
> almost by definition be awful in your opinion. Sorry I can't take your
> criticism at face value.


Oversimplified and there is no accounting for the 30% unanswered rate.

>
> Granted, they could come here and be told to scrap jQuery and build a
> test suite to figure out the most efficient and reliable means to do
> something complicated -- like trim whitespace -- but that goes back to
> my 'overkill' belief.


What about trimming white space?

>
>
>
> >>> Anyway, strange folk over there: This all sounds much like censorshipto
> >>> me.
> >>> They did ban you earlier from their fora, right?

>
> >> If they haven't, they probably should. He whines for a year about an
> >> aspect of the library then, when they say "hmmm... ok, we'll look into
> >> that", they get threatened with a lawsuit in the event a test case
> >> possibly resembles his?

>
> > Given that post by Resig and the response here, do you still believe
> > that statement? I considered the lawsuit phrase a bit of rhetoric.

>
> Having met neither in person, I can only gauge from what I've read of
> them. Resig has always come off as personable and helpful.


He couldn't be helpful if he wanted to be. He doesn't know what he's
doing. And personable? YMMD. But so what? When your site breaks,
personable won't help either.

> Mark often
> comes off as a raving loon with some bizarre vendetta against an
> inanimate javascript library, albeit a raving loon who knows javascript.


No, that's what raving loons in the jQuery world often say in response
to reviews critical of their script pal that's fun to be with. More
like Resig is a sort-of benevolent loon, marketing vapor, years behind
the times, etc. (and also made the mistake of waltzing in here talking
trash a coupld of years back).

There's certainly no shortage of people who find him disingenuous,
irritating and damaging to the industry. And there's no shortage of
proof that he's incompetent to write a general-purpose browser
scripting library. But it's not like he's the only one under
scrutiny.

>
> I wasn't privy to the emails exchanged but if you're asking me to play


Emails?

> the odds, I'll say David Mark was likely the one who started tossing
> hyperbole.


Play the odds on non-existent emails?

>
> Appears Mark was quoted... was he misquoted?


Loopy.

> I'm sure he'll chime in as
> the work 'jQuery' appears in this post.


More like I'll chime in because some twit is talking trash about
me.


> --
> Just got word from Paul Irish that David Mark is refusing to provide
> an open license for his attribute test suite - in fact he's
> threatening legal action against me and the Software Freedom
> Conservancy if we should "cop[y] one word or the tiniest aspect of the
> design". Naturally, that branch with the test suite has been
> completely deleted.
> --


Who is Paul Irish?

>
> It's his work and he's certainly free to defend it. Just don't go
> ranting about flaws as you throw up roadblocks when authors look to take
> your advice.


There are no roadblocks. That jQuery attr BS has been discussed to
death here over the years. It comes up quite a bit as there's no end
to problems with it. It's all a matter of public record. He doesn't
need my code (or the tests for my code) to fix his code. What he does
need is a basic understanding of MSHTML (something that has always
eluded him).

>
> >> Not exactly a useful contributor.

>
> > I beg to differ.

>
> >> Look at it from their perspective... why would you not just write him
> >> off as a troll?

>
> > Because he offers technically sound advice? This is a news group, not
> > a fan club. There are and have been a number of posters here who have
> > could be considered abrasive, sometimes rude - however if their advice
> > is sound it is worth taking note of or at least investigating further.

>
> His online persona is an egotistical d-bag.


I suggest you leave my persona well alone.

> Maybe in real life he's a
> happy-go-lucky sort of guy that everyone loves -- who knows?


Maybe in real life you make sense. Who knows?

> But if
> you've got a team of volunteers developing an already wildly-successful
> library


Successful in marketing only.

> -- do you really make an effort to incorporate, as you *mildly*
> put it, "abrasive, sometimes rude" into the mix to try and filter sound
> advice toward solving problems that almost no one appears to be having?


Solving problems that "almost no one appears to be having" is what
jQuery is all about. They've got nowhere else to go at this point.
 
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Erwin Moller
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      12-22-2009
David Mark schreef:

> No, that's what raving loons in the jQuery world often say in response
> to reviews critical of their script pal that's fun to be with.


MarvinScript!

Regards,
Erwin Moller



--
"There are two ways of constructing a software design: One way is to
make it so simple that there are obviously no deficiencies, and the
other way is to make it so complicated that there are no obvious
deficiencies. The first method is far more difficult."
-- C.A.R. Hoare
 
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Dr J R Stockton
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      12-23-2009
In comp.lang.javascript message <4b30257b$0$1948$(E-Mail Removed)
>, Mon, 21 Dec 2009 17:51:38, S.T. <(E-Mail Removed)> posted:
>
>That's not to say this newsgroup is useless. There's a need to discuss
>javascript in a rigorous academic-type setting. But it's not for the
>masses and a developer with an average knowledge who comes here asking
>questions one isn't likely to find results -- just more confusion
>coupled with berating.


It used to be substantially so, but then Thomas Lahn and David Mark came
along.

>This group is fine the way it is, but shouldn't promote itself as
>something it is not.


> It is not a friendly, helpful community -- rather it's an isolated
>group that will happily berate those that try to accomplish goals in a
>manner the few regulars here believe to be a less efficient approach.


That is not what it was set up for, and it is not how it would be most
beneficial. The nasties should be using, for their vituperations, a
private off-Usenet medium. And so also should the more amiable deep
experts who happen not to be reasonably good at communicating with those
who know less than they do.

--
(c) John Stockton, Surrey, UK. ?@merlyn.demon.co.uk Turnpike v6.05 MIME.
Grandson-Of-RFC1036 is released. RFC 5536 Netnews Article Format is a
subset of Internet Message Format which is described in RFC 5532. The
RFCs are read together to determine standard Netnews article format.
 
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David Mark
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      12-23-2009
On Dec 23, 2:11*pm, Dr J R Stockton <(E-Mail Removed)>
wrote:
> In comp.lang.javascript message <4b30257b$0$1948$(E-Mail Removed)
>
> >, Mon, 21 Dec 2009 17:51:38, S.T. <(E-Mail Removed)> posted:

>
> >That's not to say this newsgroup is useless. There's a need to discuss
> >javascript in a rigorous academic-type setting. But it's not for the
> >masses and a developer with an average knowledge who comes here asking
> >questions one isn't likely to find results -- just more confusion
> >coupled with berating.

>
> It used to be substantially so, but then Thomas Lahn and David Mark came
> along.


Not getting enough attention these days, Johnny?

>
> >This group is fine the way it is, but shouldn't promote itself as
> >something it is not.
> > It is not a friendly, helpful community -- rather it's an isolated
> >group that will happily berate those that try to accomplish goals in a
> >manner the few regulars here believe to be a less efficient approach.

>
> That is not what it was set up for, and it is not how it would be most
> beneficial. *The nasties should be using, for their vituperations, a
> private off-Usenet medium. *And so also should the more amiable deep
> experts who happen not to be reasonably good at communicating with those
> who know less than they do.


That certainly lets you out.
 
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