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Here, let's see what you JavaScript programmers have got

 
 
lorlarz
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      08-21-2008
Here, let's see what you JavaScript programmers have got

Here is a place to share your large or larger full-blown JavaScript
applications:
real.comp.lang.js.apps (a new google group)

Here is the description of this open public newsgroup:
A place where good full-length, full-featured, pure (or near-pure)
JavaScript large and larger applications are described and their code
shared and explained. The language used for browser programs should
be all javascript. With some programs a little php or other cgi may of
course be involved.
 
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lorlarz
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      08-21-2008
On Aug 21, 8:43*am, lorlarz <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> Here, let's see what you JavaScript programmers have got
>
> Here is a place to share your large or larger full-blown JavaScript
> applications:
> real.comp.lang.js.apps *(a new google group)
>
> Here is the description of this open public newsgroup:
> A place where good full-length, full-featured, pure (or near-pure)
> JavaScript large and larger applications are described and their code
> shared and explained. *The language used for browser programs should
> be all javascript. With some programs a little php or other cgi may of
> course be involved.


I am just learning how to do this "google groups" thing.
It looks like I need you to provide you with the web
address for posting to this open group:
http://groups.google.com/group/realcomplangjsapps

Those who know about google groups may email me and
tell me more.
 
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Mike Duffy
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      08-22-2008
lorlarz <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in news:a2b53289-abca-4b0c-9f91-
http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/(E-Mail Removed):

> On Aug 21, 8:43*am, lorlarz <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>> Here, let's see what you JavaScript programmers have got
>>
>> Here is a place to share your large or larger full-blown JavaScript
>> applications:
>> real.comp.lang.js.apps *(a new google group)
>>
>> Here is the description of this open public newsgroup:
>> A place where good full-length, full-featured, pure (or near-pure)
>> JavaScript large and larger applications are described and their code
>> shared and explained. *The language used for browser programs should
>> be all javascript. With some programs a little php or other cgi may of
>> course be involved.


I am curious about what constitutes a "large" or even "larger full-blown"
application. My understanding of javascript is that it is used more to
create several small programs that appear here and there on a website. For
sure, they can be linked somewhat using cookies and form values, but given
the limitations (i.e. no filesystem i/o, no network i/o except back to the
same server, etc), the applications tend to be small.

So, out of idle curiosity, I went to the web site you mentioned, but I did
not see any javascript applications of any size. I even tried the link in
your "motivation" message that is supposed to showcase your work:

xttp://nottoolate.info

This simply re-directed me to:

xttp://mynichecomputing.com/digitallearning/

Still no javascript. (Note: I have changed http to xttp in my post to
prevent anyone else from accidentally wasting his time.)
 
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lorlarz
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      08-22-2008
On Aug 21, 10:07*pm, Mike Duffy <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> lorlarz <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in news:a2b53289-abca-4b0c-9f91-
> (E-Mail Removed):
>
> > On Aug 21, 8:43*am, lorlarz <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> >> Here, let's see what you JavaScript programmers have got

>
> >> Here is a place to share your large or larger full-blown JavaScript
> >> applications:
> >> real.comp.lang.js.apps *(a new google group)

>
> >> Here is the description of this open public newsgroup:
> >> A place where good full-length, full-featured, pure (or near-pure)
> >> JavaScript large and larger applications are described and their code
> >> shared and explained. *The language used for browser programs should
> >> be all javascript. With some programs a little php or other cgi may of
> >> course be involved.

>
> I am curious about what constitutes a "large" or even "larger full-blown"
> application. My understanding of javascript is that it is used more to
> create several small programs that appear here and there on a website. For
> sure, they can be linked somewhat using cookies and form values, but given
> the limitations (i.e. no filesystem i/o, no network i/o except back to the
> same server, etc), the applications tend to be small.
>
> So, out of idle curiosity, I went to the web site you mentioned, but I did
> not see any javascript applications of any size. I even tried the link in
> your "motivation" message that is supposed to showcase your work:
>
> xttp://nottoolate.info
>
> This simply re-directed me to:
>
> xttp://mynichecomputing.com/digitallearning/
>
> Still no javascript. (Note: I have changed http to xttp in my post to
> prevent anyone else from accidentally wasting his time.)


Did you expect the programs to be right on the
home page? What a jerK!! Look for links.

If you explore the links from that home page,
http://mynichecomputing.com/digitallearning/ ,
you will find many JS programs -- browser programs
that interact with the user through several steps and
made some product they want. That alone, suffices
as a program: Several steps interacting with a user
and creating a product which the program user wants.

I do not mean to over emphasize "large" at all, in
fact, I want to emphasize the words "program" aka
"application' (in JavaScript) . If you have
anything like that which you would like to share
I invite you to share it here:
http://groups.google.com/group/realcomplangjsapps

 
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lorlarz
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      08-22-2008
On Aug 21, 10:07*pm, Mike Duffy <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
[snip]
> My understanding of javascript is that it is used more to
> create several small programs that appear here and there on a website. For
> sure, they can be linked somewhat using cookies and form values, but given
> the limitations (i.e. no filesystem i/o, no network i/o except back to the
> same server, etc), the applications tend to be small.


The above understanding of JavaScript is precisely what I know is
wrong,
and several (including myself) have proven it wrong. There is the
capability for full programs (as you, me or anyone would understand
the word) IN JAVASCRIPT. The fact that there are those still who do
not even realize this is sad and is why the new google group has
been started.
http://groups.google.com/group/realcomplangjsapps
 
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lorlarz
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Posts: n/a
 
      08-22-2008
On Aug 22, 9:18*am, lorlarz <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> On Aug 21, 10:07*pm, Mike Duffy <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> [snip]
>
> > My understanding of javascript is that it is used more to
> > create several small programs that appear here and there on a website. For
> > sure, they can be linked somewhat using cookies and form values, but given
> > the limitations (i.e. no filesystem i/o, no network i/o except back to the
> > same server, etc), the applications tend to be small.

>
> The above understanding of JavaScript is precisely what I know is
> wrong,
> and several (including myself) have proven it wrong. *There is the
> capability for full programs (as you, me or anyone would understand
> the word) IN JAVASCRIPT. *The fact that there are those still who do
> not even realize this is sad and is why the new google group has
> been started.http://groups.google.com/group/realcomplangjsapps


Let me describe one of the more elaborate and fun (and useful and
interactive and multifaceted) JavaScript programs I have seen,
just to give you a sense of how few limitations there really are on
JavaScript for program making.

I might as well say who did the program and where it can be found,
right
up front. The maze I will describe was built with functions via
programs
from the book, The Art and Science of JavaScript by Adams, Edwards,
Heilmann,
Mahemhoff, Pehlivanian, Webb, Willison (Sitepoint , 200 Anyhow, this
PURELY
JavaScript program allows a user to walk through a very large maze,
and
at each step the user can look right and left (and sometimes straight
ahead)
and see a different jpeg or gif (or embed). Thus, the program can be
used,
for example, an art display vehicle OR a walk through history, etc.,
etc., etc.,
(The graphics are amazingly satisfactory (sky, clouds, grass, walls).)

Now that is not only many steps and much interactivity, producing the
"product" a user wants BUT the uses for it are amazing and highly
variable.

The story (and this is a true story) is not even over yet: The
author
of this program (and it is NOT me) also includes a maze builder to
automatically make different mazes. I have done nothing to improve
this
program, except make a small builder to automatically write the code
for
placement of the gifs, jpegs, or embeds on the maze walls plus I made
a mini-maze view, so the user can see the whole make at once from
above
and see where they are. The author of the program has given me
express
permission to share this program with teacher for fun learning
activities.

This is one of the most cool (and very universally useful) javascript
programs I have seen.

 
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lorlarz
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Posts: n/a
 
      08-22-2008
On Aug 21, 10:07 pm, Mike Duffy <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
[snip]

> My understanding of javascript is that it is used more to
> create several small programs that appear here and there on a website. For
> sure, they can be linked somewhat using cookies and form values, but given
> the limitations (i.e. no filesystem i/o, no network i/o except back to the
> same server, etc), the applications tend to be small.


Just out of curiosity, how many in this newsgroup actually
have this sort of limited understanding of JavaScript?

Let's get beyond this. Beyond the basic language and problems
of its use and get to somethings interesting:
http://groups.google.com/group/realcomplangjsapps

Some must be sick of the small problems with snippets
and explaining just the basics of the language.

 
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Michael Wojcik
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      08-22-2008
lorlarz wrote:
>
> Let's get beyond this. Beyond the basic language and problems
> of its use and get to somethings interesting:
> http://groups.google.com/group/realcomplangjsapps


That would require using Google Groups, so as far as I'm concerned
it's right out.

I'm not sure why I'd need or want another forum to discuss ECMAScript
programs just because they're "large" or "interesting"; if they're
*that* interesting, they'll probably be appearing in a conference
presentation or publication or the like. But in any case, I'm
definitely not going to use the asinine interface of Google Groups for
the purpose.

--
Michael Wojcik
Micro Focus
Rhetoric & Writing, Michigan State University
 
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Lasse Reichstein Nielsen
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Posts: n/a
 
      08-22-2008
lorlarz <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:

> On Aug 21, 10:07 pm, Mike Duffy <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> [snip]
>
>> My understanding of javascript is that it is used more to
>> create several small programs that appear here and there on a website. For
>> sure, they can be linked somewhat using cookies and form values, but given
>> the limitations (i.e. no filesystem i/o, no network i/o except back to the
>> same server, etc), the applications tend to be small.

>
> Just out of curiosity, how many in this newsgroup actually
> have this sort of limited understanding of JavaScript?


Can't speak for others, but for me ... I agree with neither of you.

Javascript in itself is just a language.

It can be used in many places, currently including, but not limited
to, web-pages, PDF files, flash applications, web-servers, .net
applications in general, and the Windows scripting host.

The traditional usage in many of these cases are small scripts that
enhance the experience without being essential, but that is just
the norm, not the limit. Even just in web-pages, Javascript usage
spans from simple form-validations to, e.g., GMail and Google Docs.

The language does not define the use. The target platform of the
program does, to some extend, but with a wide span (e.g., I haven't
seen vector graphics in a PDF file yet).

For web-pages there are generally two approaches:

1. Improving the experience on a page, but with gracefull degredation
if scripting is allowed. This is the approach of high-volume sites
who wants all the customers they can get, even those with javascript
disabled. The page is not the end goal, but a means to an end (e.g.,
finding and buying a product).

2. Browser-applications, where the page depends on scripting to meet
its intended use. The page is not just presenting information, but
actively manipulating it and producing content.

Both are valid.

> Let's get beyond this. Beyond the basic language and problems
> of its use and get to somethings interesting:
> http://groups.google.com/group/realcomplangjsapps


The title sounds somewhat pretentious. I'd guess, if all I know was
the name, that it's a vanity group with few (or just one) recurring
user, and not likely to be interesting in general.

Starting up a group is not easy unless it covers an existing need,
manages to become visible to the people with that need, and does
so in short enough time that it reaches critical mass. Too few users
at a time just means that those users go away, and new users sees
an even less populated group.

I don't generally use Google Groups, either, preferring to stay with
Usenet. Have they created a NNTP interface to their non-Usenet groups
yet?

> Some must be sick of the small problems with snippets
> and explaining just the basics of the language.


The problems in writing programs in a language can be separated into
the problems inherent to the problem domain (the inherent complexity
of the problem) and the problems deriving from the choice of platform,
language, or other tools (accidental complexity).

The problems that are Javascript related are therefore, to a large
extend, the accidental problems caused by language restrictions or
problems with the target platform (typically web-browsers). Those
problems can, generally, be explained by small snippets of code
that solve that particular problem.
There is a reason it's what we see

Also, many, many users of Javascript on web-pages are not programmers.
They rarely try big programs (and good for them, since it's almost
inevitable that they would fail), so again, their questions are
solved by small snippets of code.

More general problems are typically about algorithms or
data-structures, and would probably fit better in a more general group
than a language-specific one.

Also, at a certain level of complexity, it might be simpler to use
a framework to generate the pages and scripting, instead of writing
it manually, e.g., GWT. At that point, one will go to the framework's
community with questions instead of here.

/L
--
Lasse Reichstein Nielsen
DHTML Death Colors: <URL:http://www.infimum.dk/HTML/rasterTriangleDOM.html>
'Faith without judgement merely degrades the spirit divine.'
 
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Doug Gunnoe
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Posts: n/a
 
      08-22-2008
On Aug 22, 11:11*am, Lasse Reichstein Nielsen <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> Also, many, many users of Javascript on web-pages are not programmers.
> They rarely try big programs (and good for them, since it's almost
> inevitable that they would fail), so again, their questions are
> solved by small snippets of code.


Are you talking to me?

Seriously, this is true (although personally I have done some larger
stuff). And in fact, I believe JavaScript was created so that non-
professionals could get some benefit from it.

And this new guy is funny. The combination of not being very good at
English and not being the JavaScript expert he thinks he is has made
for much lolz the last few days.
 
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