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Javascript and Microsoft Windows

 
 
Peter Olcott
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      08-13-2006
Does JavaScript represent its controls internally as Microsoft Windows controls,
or does it build them from scratch like Java?


 
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Dr John Stockton
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      08-13-2006
JRS: In article <QGHDg.3811$uW1.51@dukeread06>, dated Sun, 13 Aug 2006
10:37:22 remote, seen in news:comp.lang.javascript, Peter Olcott
<(E-Mail Removed)> posted :
>Does JavaScript represent its controls internally as Microsoft Windows controls,
>or does it build them from scratch like Java?


No.

Javascript runs on various operating systems, most not being MS Windows.

Javascript does not have controls, but allows access to controls built
by other parts of the system.

--
John Stockton, Surrey, UK. ?@merlyn.demon.co.uk Delphi 3 Turnpike 4
<URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/> TP/BP/Delphi/&c., FAQqy topics & links;
<URL:http://www.bancoems.com/CompLangPascalDelphiMisc-MiniFAQ.htm> clpdmFAQ;
<URL:http://www.borland.com/newsgroups/guide.html> news:borland.* Guidelines
 
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Peter Olcott
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      08-14-2006

"Dr John Stockton" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> JRS: In article <QGHDg.3811$uW1.51@dukeread06>, dated Sun, 13 Aug 2006
> 10:37:22 remote, seen in news:comp.lang.javascript, Peter Olcott
> <(E-Mail Removed)> posted :
>>Does JavaScript represent its controls internally as Microsoft Windows
>>controls,
>>or does it build them from scratch like Java?

>
> No.
>
> Javascript runs on various operating systems, most not being MS Windows.
>
> Javascript does not have controls, but allows access to controls built
> by other parts of the system.
>

From what I remember, JavaScript can place a button on the screen. Is this
correct, and are you then saying that on the MS Windows platform, this would be
internally represented as an MS Windows Button?

> --
> John Stockton, Surrey, UK. ?@merlyn.demon.co.uk Delphi 3 Turnpike 4
> <URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/> TP/BP/Delphi/&c., FAQqy topics & links;
> <URL:http://www.bancoems.com/CompLangPascalDelphiMisc-MiniFAQ.htm> clpdmFAQ;
> <URL:http://www.borland.com/newsgroups/guide.html> news:borland.* Guidelines



 
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RobG
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      08-14-2006
Peter Olcott wrote:
> "Dr John Stockton" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> > JRS: In article <QGHDg.3811$uW1.51@dukeread06>, dated Sun, 13 Aug 2006
> > 10:37:22 remote, seen in news:comp.lang.javascript, Peter Olcott
> > <(E-Mail Removed)> posted :
> >>Does JavaScript represent its controls internally as Microsoft Windows
> >>controls,
> >>or does it build them from scratch like Java?

> >
> > No.
> >
> > Javascript runs on various operating systems, most not being MS Windows.
> >
> > Javascript does not have controls, but allows access to controls built
> > by other parts of the system.
> >

> From what I remember, JavaScript can place a button on the screen. Is this


The difference between the core ECMAScript (JavaScript) language, its
built-in objects and those provided by a host environment are explained
here:

<URL: http://www.jibbering.com/faq/#FAQ2_6 >


> correct, and are you then saying that on the MS Windows platform, this would be
> internally represented as an MS Windows Button?


"Internally"? The ECMAScript specification does not detail how things
should be implemented, it just descibes the language itself.

"[ECMAScript] is a programming language that is used to manipulate,
customise, and automate the facilities of an existing system."

ECMAScript Language Specification section 4.

The host environment provides objects that have properties and methods,
JavaScript can be used to manipulate those objects to the extent
allowed by the host.

Most browsers provide a scriptable document object model (DOM) that
allows a script to create DOM objects (buttons, text inputs,
paragraphs, etc.) that can be manipulated using standard W3C properties
and methods as well as proprietary ones provided by the particular
browser.

The "button" that a host environment makes available in a DOM may be
different to the one that it provides to it's own development
environment. If I am running Firefox on Windows and use JavaScript to
create a button in a page, in what sense is that a "Windows button"?
If I use OmniWeb on Mac OS X and run the same script, will I get a "Mac
OS X button"?

Why does it matter? JavaScript use is not limited to browsers, nor
must it be used with a UI. All it needs is a scriptable host
environment.


--
Rob

 
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Gernot Frisch
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      08-14-2006

"Peter Olcott" <(E-Mail Removed)> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:QGHDg.3811$uW1.51@dukeread06...
> Does JavaScript represent its controls internally as Microsoft
> Windows controls, or does it build them from scratch like Java?



It depends on the browser and version you use. Some place a real Win32
window with button class on the page, others just place an image that
"looks" like the win32 button. Others just place a grey rectable with
text as a button.
You should not care, since in JS you can't access more than just "a
button" - no matter what the browser made of it.


 
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Peter Olcott
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      08-14-2006

"RobG" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed) ups.com...
> Peter Olcott wrote:
>> "Dr John Stockton" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>> news:(E-Mail Removed)...
>> > JRS: In article <QGHDg.3811$uW1.51@dukeread06>, dated Sun, 13 Aug 2006
>> > 10:37:22 remote, seen in news:comp.lang.javascript, Peter Olcott
>> > <(E-Mail Removed)> posted :
>> >>Does JavaScript represent its controls internally as Microsoft Windows
>> >>controls,
>> >>or does it build them from scratch like Java?
>> >
>> > No.
>> >
>> > Javascript runs on various operating systems, most not being MS Windows.
>> >
>> > Javascript does not have controls, but allows access to controls built
>> > by other parts of the system.
>> >

>> From what I remember, JavaScript can place a button on the screen. Is this

>
> The difference between the core ECMAScript (JavaScript) language, its
> built-in objects and those provided by a host environment are explained
> here:
>
> <URL: http://www.jibbering.com/faq/#FAQ2_6 >
>
>
>> correct, and are you then saying that on the MS Windows platform, this would
>> be
>> internally represented as an MS Windows Button?

>
> "Internally"? The ECMAScript specification does not detail how things
> should be implemented, it just descibes the language itself.
>
> "[ECMAScript] is a programming language that is used to manipulate,
> customise, and automate the facilities of an existing system."
>
> ECMAScript Language Specification section 4.
>
> The host environment provides objects that have properties and methods,
> JavaScript can be used to manipulate those objects to the extent
> allowed by the host.
>
> Most browsers provide a scriptable document object model (DOM) that
> allows a script to create DOM objects (buttons, text inputs,
> paragraphs, etc.) that can be manipulated using standard W3C properties
> and methods as well as proprietary ones provided by the particular
> browser.
>
> The "button" that a host environment makes available in a DOM may be
> different to the one that it provides to it's own development
> environment. If I am running Firefox on Windows and use JavaScript to
> create a button in a page, in what sense is that a "Windows button"?
> If I use OmniWeb on Mac OS X and run the same script, will I get a "Mac
> OS X button"?
>
> Why does it matter? JavaScript use is not limited to browsers, nor
> must it be used with a UI. All it needs is a scriptable host
> environment.


It matters to my specific task at hand. I am estimating the possible ways that a
competitor could achieve the same functionality as my patented invention without
violating my patent. For this reason I need to know the extent to which
graphical user interface controls are actually implemented in ways other than
using native Win32 objects on the Win32 platform. Java Swing was one specific
example of this.

>
>
> --
> Rob
>



 
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Peter Olcott
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      08-14-2006

"Gernot Frisch" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
>
> "Peter Olcott" <(E-Mail Removed)> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> news:QGHDg.3811$uW1.51@dukeread06...
>> Does JavaScript represent its controls internally as Microsoft Windows
>> controls, or does it build them from scratch like Java?

>
>
> It depends on the browser and version you use. Some place a real Win32 window
> with button class on the page, others just place an image that "looks" like
> the win32 button. Others just place a grey rectable with text as a button.
> You should not care, since in JS you can't access more than just "a button" -
> no matter what the browser made of it.
>


I care for reasons stated in my prior response. I need to know this.


 
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The Magpie
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      08-15-2006
Peter Olcott wrote:
>
> It matters to my specific task at hand. I am estimating the possible ways that a
> competitor could achieve the same functionality as my patented invention without
> violating my patent. For this reason I need to know the extent to which
> graphical user interface controls are actually implemented in ways other than
> using native Win32 objects on the Win32 platform. Java Swing was one specific
> example of this.
>

A patent (limited though they are anyway) applies to an *invention* and
not to an *implementation*. If you have invented something then the GUI
you use to do it is irrelevant. Frankly, you should remember that the
entire patent is mostly irrelevant anyway, since software cannot be
patented in most of the world and most countries will simply ignore your
patent anyway.
 
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Peter Olcott
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Posts: n/a
 
      08-15-2006

"The Magpie" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:ebs6me$gs0$2$(E-Mail Removed)...
> Peter Olcott wrote:
>>
>> It matters to my specific task at hand. I am estimating the possible ways
>> that a
>> competitor could achieve the same functionality as my patented invention
>> without
>> violating my patent. For this reason I need to know the extent to which
>> graphical user interface controls are actually implemented in ways other than
>> using native Win32 objects on the Win32 platform. Java Swing was one specific
>> example of this.
>>

> A patent (limited though they are anyway) applies to an *invention* and
> not to an *implementation*. If you have invented something then the GUI
> you use to do it is irrelevant. Frankly, you should remember that the
> entire patent is mostly irrelevant anyway, since software cannot be
> patented in most of the world and most countries will simply ignore your
> patent anyway.


The United States represents about half of the world software market, so that
patent has good coverage, in half the world. The rest of the world must still
legally respect the copyright. My original question can not be rephrased. What I
really need to know is exactly how difficult it is for another program to
determine the exact location and current state of any graphical user interface
controls. Someone told me that this is pretty easy using Ajax.


 
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Richard Cornford
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      08-15-2006
Peter Olcott wrote:
<snip>
> ... . My original question can not be rephrased.


That would be a pity as your original question did not make sense in
javascript terms (javascript has no 'controls', instead relying on a
host to provide that type of facility). But It has been answered
anyway: browser hosts use Windows native input elements, their own
internal input elements and even Java Swing input elements (in the case
of IceBrowser at least).

> What I really need to know is exactly how difficult it is for another
> program


What is 'another program'?

> to determine the exact location


Javascript executing in browser environments can determine the exact
pixel position (screen/ within the window and on the HTML page) of
elements being displayed in an HTML document that it is scripting
whenever the browser eposes sufficient information for that
determination to be possible (which is often, but not universally, the
case).

> and current state of any graphical user interface controls.


What do you consider the 'state' of a graphical user Interface control?
Brower hosts expose properties of controls/elements to scripting and
the values of those properties are normal candidates to be considered
the 'state' of the control/element.

> Someone told me that this is pretty easy using Ajax.


AJAX is completely irrelevant to the issue.

Richard.

 
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