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Perl is too slow - A statement

 
 
Nathan Keel
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Posts: n/a
 
      05-05-2009
David Formosa (aka ? the Platypus) wrote:

> On Mon, 04 May 2009 09:45:55 -0700, Nathan Keel <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>> David Formosa (aka ? the Platypus) wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 03 May 2009 22:37:30 -0700, Nathan Keel <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>>> David Formosa (aka ? the Platypus) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, 29 Apr 2009 20:33:23 -0700, Nathan Keel <(E-Mail Removed)>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> [...]
>>>>>
>>>>>> What happens when you find that the language isn't fast enough?
>>>>>
>>>>> Lanauges are not fast or slow enough. Applications arn't fast
>>>>> enought.
>>>>
>>>> I don't know what "Lanauges" are, so I'll take your word for it.
>>>
>>> Real classy a spelling flame. Like I haven't seen one of thouse
>>> before.
>>>
>>> http://quollified.com/~platypus/index.html

>>
>> I resorted to picking on the typos because the response you made
>> didn't
>> make sense, even when the spelling was corrected. I didn't take the
>> reply seriously, it looked like you were just posting nonsense for
>> the
>> sake of it, so I poked fun. If you were genuine, then please
>> elaborate and accept my apologies for my assumption.

>
> Ok your claim was "What happens when you find that the language isn't
> fast enough?". My responce was that this question didn't make sence.
> Because languages are not what is fast or slow, applications are fast
> and slow.


Certain languages will run faster than others. Precompiled languages,
for example, and thus C will run faster than Perl. So, if the slowness
of Perl could be remedied and be more efficient if re-worked in quality
C code, it could solve the problem. Additionally, this is something
that can be decided in the pre development stage, is what I was saying.
In other words, if Perl is causing too much overhead, you might not
need to only have the option of getting a faster system to resolve the
problem.

> "What happens when you find that application" isn't fast enought is a
> far more fruitful question.


The design of the application is important, and the language selection
might be, too, it all depends. An application built using a very slow
language that's not well designed for the function, would show it was a
language choice, where it could be developed in another language and
you'd not have that problem. Of course there are many variables that
play a role in that and the system still matters, how you utilize the
processing, the platform, etc., but language choice is still valid in
some scenarios.

 
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Nathan Keel
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Posts: n/a
 
      05-06-2009
David Formosa (aka ? the Platypus) wrote:

> On Mon, 04 May 2009 17:28:11 -0700, Nathan Keel <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>> David Formosa (aka ? the Platypus) wrote:

> [...]
>>> Ok your claim was "What happens when you find that the language
>>> isn't
>>> fast enough?". My responce was that this question didn't make
>>> sence. Because languages are not what is fast or slow, applications
>>> are fast and slow.

>>
>> Certain languages will run faster than others.

>
> Languages are not run, programs are run.


You're really going out of your way to be sarcastic and petty here. The
"program" is build/coded in the particular language, and this some run
faster than others. You know what I meant. It's unfortunate that I
have to spell it out so literally.

>> Precompiled languages, for example, and thus C will run faster than
>> Perl.

>
> Your at the wrong leval of abstraction. Languages are syntax and
> semantics, programs running under language implimentations may run
> faster or slower but that doesn't mean the language is faster or
> slower.


Ugh. See the above, or are you going to base your whole argument on
such a foolish semantic so you can try and appear witty?

>> So, if the slowness
>> of Perl could be remedied and be more efficient if re-worked in
>> quality C code, it could solve the problem.

>
> Most of the time slow code can be remedied by profiling the perl and
> improving the algorithm. You get far larger speed improvements from
> shifting down a class of big-O behavour then any language port.


Of course you can improve different areas of different code in different
languages, but some programs are faster, coded to do the same things in
different languages (choices).

>> Additionally, this is something
>> that can be decided in the pre development stage, is what I was
>> saying.

>
> Optimizing in predevelopement is the very definition of premature.


I didn't ever say "optimizing" in predevelopment. I said that you can
plan what language would be best to create an application in, before
you start. That was speaking directly in response to the mention of
that aspect, so don't make more out of what was said. Also, don't
reach so far to try and make your point. If you comprehend what I
said, then you've got nothing to disagree with, so enough with the
petty remarks.
 
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Peter J. Holzer
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Posts: n/a
 
      05-07-2009
On 2009-05-05 00:22, David Formosa (aka ? the Platypus) <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> On Mon, 04 May 2009 09:45:55 -0700, Nathan Keel <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>> David Formosa (aka ? the Platypus) wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 03 May 2009 22:37:30 -0700, Nathan Keel <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>>> David Formosa (aka ? the Platypus) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, 29 Apr 2009 20:33:23 -0700, Nathan Keel <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>>>> [...]
>>>>>
>>>>>> What happens when you find that the language isn't fast enough?
>>>>>
>>>>> Lanauges are not fast or slow enough. Applications arn't fast
>>>>> enought.
>>>>
>>>> I don't know what "Lanauges" are, so I'll take your word for it.
>>>
>>> Real classy a spelling flame. Like I haven't seen one of thouse
>>> before.
>>>
>>> http://quollified.com/~platypus/index.html

>>
>> I resorted to picking on the typos because the response you made didn't
>> make sense, even when the spelling was corrected. I didn't take the
>> reply seriously, it looked like you were just posting nonsense for the
>> sake of it, so I poked fun. If you were genuine, then please elaborate
>> and accept my apologies for my assumption.

>
> Ok your claim was "What happens when you find that the language isn't
> fast enough?". My responce was that this question didn't make sence.
> Because languages are not what is fast or slow, applications are fast
> and slow.


I disagree. While a language per se is neither slow nor fast, all
computer languages (which can actually be used) have at least one
implementation (compiler, interpreter, run time system, etc.). For some
languages (like Perl5) there is only implementation, so the speed of
this implementation is also the speed the language (Yes, somebody could
write an alternate Perl5 implementation which was vastly faster or
slower, but nobody did - if you want to run Perl5 programs you need to
use perl). Even for languages with hundreds or thousands
of different implementations (like C or Fortran) some feature of the
language makes certain optimizations simple or difficult, so it makes
sense to say that for a certain class of problems Fortran is faster than
C: That doesn't mean that all Fortran programs for this class of
problems run faster that all C programs: But if you have a C programmer
and a Fortran programmer of roughly equivalent skill and a C compiler
and a Fortran compiler of roughly comparable sophistication, the chances
are good that the Fortran program will run faster than the C program on
the same hardware.

For an interpreted language like Perl, the class of problems which
simply cannot be solved efficiently in this language is relatively
large. Fortunately, such languages can usually call subroutines written
in other languages. So the answer for the question "What happens when
you find that perl isn't fast enough?" may sometimes be: You identify
the bottleneck and rewrite that part of the code as an XS module.

hp
 
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