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Why not Ruby?

 
 
Tamas K Papp
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      01-01-2009
On Thu, 01 Jan 2009 23:28:08 +0100, Richard Riley wrote:

> posts controversial but always interesting. His ELisp tutorial is far
> and away better than anything else out there for the programmer moving
> to Elisp IMO. He backs up his points with reasons and supportive


Programmers don't "move" to Elisp. Emacs Lisp is used out of necessity
when you want to program Emacs. No one in his/her right mind would use
it in any other context, as far better alternatives exist (eg CL for
those who like Lisp).

Tamas
 
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Richard Riley
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      01-01-2009
Tamas K Papp <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:

> On Thu, 01 Jan 2009 23:28:08 +0100, Richard Riley wrote:
>
>> posts controversial but always interesting. His ELisp tutorial is far
>> and away better than anything else out there for the programmer moving
>> to Elisp IMO. He backs up his points with reasons and supportive

>
> Programmers don't "move" to Elisp. Emacs Lisp is used out of necessity
> when you want to program Emacs. No one in his/her right mind would use
> it in any other context, as far better alternatives exist (eg CL for
> those who like Lisp).
>
> Tamas


"move to Elisp" was clearly meant as "moving towards it in order to use
it". In this case to modify emacs. And to suggest that jobs of work are
not done in Emacs is ridiculous. I am at a loss to really understand
what you mean here in the context.

--
important and urgent problems of the technology of today are no longer the satisfactions of the primary needs or of archetypal wishes, but the reparation of the evils and damages by the technology of yesterday. ~Dennis Gabor, Innovations: Scientific, Technological and Social, 1970
 
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Raymond Wiker
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      01-01-2009
Richard Riley <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:

> Tamas K Papp <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:
>
>> On Thu, 01 Jan 2009 23:28:08 +0100, Richard Riley wrote:
>>
>>> posts controversial but always interesting. His ELisp tutorial is far
>>> and away better than anything else out there for the programmer moving
>>> to Elisp IMO. He backs up his points with reasons and supportive

>>
>> Programmers don't "move" to Elisp. Emacs Lisp is used out of necessity
>> when you want to program Emacs. No one in his/her right mind would use
>> it in any other context, as far better alternatives exist (eg CL for
>> those who like Lisp).
>>
>> Tamas

>
> "move to Elisp" was clearly meant as "moving towards it in order to use
> it". In this case to modify emacs. And to suggest that jobs of work are
> not done in Emacs is ridiculous. I am at a loss to really understand
> what you mean here in the context.


OK, how about this: Xah's elisp code stinks to high
heaven. His code should not be studied by anybody who actually wants
to actually learn elisp (or anything else).
 
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Tim Greer
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      01-01-2009
Richard Riley wrote:

>
> Tim Greer <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:
>
>> Giampaolo Rodola' wrote:
>>
>>> This is not a Ruby group.
>>> I recommend you to go waste your time there.

>>
>> That poster has a frequent habit of cross posting to multiple,
>> irrelevant news groups. There's no rhyme or reason to it. It's best
>> to just filter the guy's posts.

>
> No rhyme nor reason? It's quite clear, to me, why.
>
> How is a comparison article not relevant when he is trying to
> stimulate discussion about alternative languages for modern
> development? Most news readers feature a kill thread command if you
> are not interested in the content. Certainly less extreme or ignorant
> than killing all posts from someone who clearly has interesting things
> to say about development practises and tools.


Don't get so wound up because people in groups he cross posts this junk
to actually don't want to see it. This poster is hardly interesting or
offering anything intelligent. This poster has a history of posting
things that he is personally interested in arguing about, and posting
it in groups that are not about the languages he chooses to complain
about. There is no rhyme or reason to post in the Perl news group, for
example, if you're complaining about Ruby. This is not even close to
the first time this has happened, much like his relentless posts about
Mathematica (again, cross posted to several groups, including Perl).
This user has a specific bias and is trolling to get a rise out of
people by picking random languages and trying to cut them down,
claiming *his* opinions (based on lack of insights, ironically) are
superior. He does this often, and always cross posts to several groups
that are completely irrelevant to his argument.

The fact you actually buy into this nonsense, actually doesn't make
anyone else wrong or ignorant for not agreeing with him, or falling for
it. In fact, it means exactly the opposite. If he had something
actually interesting and/or relevant, then his rants would be more
tolerated by users of these groups. However, since he offers none of
those aspects, this is why you see people voice their grievances. Look
at this in its basic element, if you don't believe what people say --
this user didn't post the topic in the most revelant group (being the
ruby group), and each time he goes off on another misguided tangent,
several people prove him wrong, and it doesn't phase him or change
anything -- he just continues to cross post. Like I said, if you think
he's interesting, fine. However, many people don't. Perhaps as you
learn more about programming, development and specific tools and
practices, you'll come to realize this fact as well. In the meantime,
the irony is probably lost when you actually believe he is offering
something of substance, interest or that people whom know better are
somehow ignorant.
--
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Tim Greer
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      01-01-2009
Richard Riley wrote:

> Jason Rumney <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:
>
>> On Jan 1, 3:12Â*pm, r <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>
>>> The man lives in a world driven by common sense

>>
>> "Common" sense suggests that his views are shared among the general
>> populace. I don't see much evidence of that in the sometimes never-
>> ending threads that frequently follow his postings. But it is good to
>> start debates about making changes to the status quo, often the
>> debates will result in worthwhile changes, even if those changes are
>> not what he proposed. I just wish he would choose his venue a little
>> more carefully sometimes.

>
> I find that with Xah's posts people argue the man and not his
> points. And they argue the man because he refuses to be brow beaten by
> those who do not like to be criticised or are too think skinned. I
> rarely find his posts controversial but always interesting. His ELisp
> tutorial is far and away better than anything else out there for the
> programmer moving to Elisp IMO. He backs up his points with reasons
> and supportive evidence and rarely with "because I'm experienced and
> thats the way it is" - something not every one takes the time to do.
> He is clearly intelligent, thoughtful and experienced if a little
> lacking in finesse at times. The world needs more Xah lees.
>


You say he's intelligent and interesting, others see it as the opposite.
If you want to read his rants, by all means. However, there have been
many, many posts there this poster was proven wrong. That is when the
poster become more belligerent, off topic, and vulgar. That is not the
actions of an intelligent person that's staying on topic or providing
anything interesting. The only thing I find interesting, is two
anonymous posters from gmail.com rushing to his defense, especially in
light of the fact that few people share your version of this person's
talents. I'm not trying to be mean, but the guy is what people call a
usenet troll. By all means, be his fan, but don't encourage his cross
posting trolling as a means to provoke interesting, intelligent
debating (because he's not and it's absolutely not his intention).
Believe what you want, though, and I'll believe what I know.
--
Tim Greer, CEO/Founder/CTO, BurlyHost.com, Inc.
Shared Hosting, Reseller Hosting, Dedicated & Semi-Dedicated servers
and Custom Hosting. 24/7 support, 30 day guarantee, secure servers.
Industry's most experienced staff! -- Web Hosting With Muscle!
 
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Kenneth Tilton
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Posts: n/a
 
      01-01-2009
Richard Riley wrote:
> Jason Rumney <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:
>
>> On Jan 1, 3:12 pm, r <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>
>>> The man lives in a world driven by common sense

>> "Common" sense suggests that his views are shared among the general
>> populace. I don't see much evidence of that in the sometimes never-
>> ending threads that frequently follow his postings. But it is good to
>> start debates about making changes to the status quo, often the
>> debates will result in worthwhile changes, even if those changes are
>> not what he proposed. I just wish he would choose his venue a little
>> more carefully sometimes.

>
> I find that with Xah's posts people argue the man and not his
> points.


Precisely, and thus they are the trolls: few of them trim followups, and
all of them try to sound funny or clever in their attacks. Xah has
something to say about technology, like what he says or not. His
attackers just see an open mike and want to hear the sound of their own
voice, which I certainly understand.

And before anyone goes for that old argument from self-reference, the
madding crowd succeeded once in their harrassment of The Xah so
remaining silent is no option.

p,k
 
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Richard Riley
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      01-01-2009
Raymond Wiker <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:

> Richard Riley <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:
>
>> Tamas K Papp <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:
>>
>>> On Thu, 01 Jan 2009 23:28:08 +0100, Richard Riley wrote:
>>>
>>>> posts controversial but always interesting. His ELisp tutorial is far
>>>> and away better than anything else out there for the programmer moving
>>>> to Elisp IMO. He backs up his points with reasons and supportive
>>>
>>> Programmers don't "move" to Elisp. Emacs Lisp is used out of necessity
>>> when you want to program Emacs. No one in his/her right mind would use
>>> it in any other context, as far better alternatives exist (eg CL for
>>> those who like Lisp).
>>>
>>> Tamas

>>
>> "move to Elisp" was clearly meant as "moving towards it in order to use
>> it". In this case to modify emacs. And to suggest that jobs of work are
>> not done in Emacs is ridiculous. I am at a loss to really understand
>> what you mean here in the context.

>
> OK, how about this: Xah's elisp code stinks to high
> heaven. His code should not be studied by anybody who actually wants
> to actually learn elisp (or anything else).


I found his tutorial easy to use and very convenient for finding out how
to do things quickly and easily. I grant you that possibly thats not the
way to be a true Elisp god, but for getting things done in a timely and
efficient manner I thought it was good.

Clearly Xah Lee stirs up some strong emotions here. I can only go on
what I have read from him and I find him interesting and always willing
to back up his own research and views.

--
important and urgent problems of the technology of today are no longer the satisfactions of the primary needs or of archetypal wishes, but the reparation of the evils and damages by the technology of yesterday. ~Dennis Gabor, Innovations: Scientific, Technological and Social, 1970
 
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Richard Riley
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      01-01-2009
Tim Greer <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:

> Richard Riley wrote:
>
>>
>> Tim Greer <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:
>>
>>> Giampaolo Rodola' wrote:
>>>
>>>> This is not a Ruby group.
>>>> I recommend you to go waste your time there.
>>>
>>> That poster has a frequent habit of cross posting to multiple,
>>> irrelevant news groups. There's no rhyme or reason to it. It's best
>>> to just filter the guy's posts.

>>
>> No rhyme nor reason? It's quite clear, to me, why.
>>
>> How is a comparison article not relevant when he is trying to
>> stimulate discussion about alternative languages for modern
>> development? Most news readers feature a kill thread command if you
>> are not interested in the content. Certainly less extreme or ignorant
>> than killing all posts from someone who clearly has interesting things
>> to say about development practises and tools.

>
> Don't get so wound up because people in groups he cross posts this
> junk



Wound up? I am not wound up in any shape or form. I am suggesting the
opposite. It seems you are the one a little wound up. So wound up in
fact you are taking it on yourself to tell people who they should or
should not read.

> to actually don't want to see it. This poster is hardly interesting or
> offering anything intelligent. This poster has a history of posting
> things that he is personally interested in arguing about, and posting
> it in groups that are not about the languages he chooses to complain
> about. There is no rhyme or reason to post in the Perl news group,
> for


You dont seem to think that a comparison article is relevant in the
groups dedicated to the languages he compares too? OK. I do. You are, of
course, welcome to your opinion and I certainly would not tell you who
to read or not read. I would suggest that not everyone woul agree with
you and that telling people who to killfile is not at all constructive.

> example, if you're complaining about Ruby. This is not even close to
> the first time this has happened, much like his relentless posts about
> Mathematica (again, cross posted to several groups, including Perl).
> This user has a specific bias and is trolling to get a rise out of
> people by picking random languages and trying to cut them down,
> claiming *his* opinions (based on lack of insights, ironically) are
> superior. He does this often, and always cross posts to several groups
> that are completely irrelevant to his argument.


You clearly have a personal issue with Xah Lee. Possibly it is better
you killfile him or your spring will over wind :-;

regards,

r.
 
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Richard Riley
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      01-02-2009
Kenneth Tilton <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:

> Richard Riley wrote:
>> Jason Rumney <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:
>>
>>> On Jan 1, 3:12 pm, r <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The man lives in a world driven by common sense
>>> "Common" sense suggests that his views are shared among the general
>>> populace. I don't see much evidence of that in the sometimes never-
>>> ending threads that frequently follow his postings. But it is good to
>>> start debates about making changes to the status quo, often the
>>> debates will result in worthwhile changes, even if those changes are
>>> not what he proposed. I just wish he would choose his venue a little
>>> more carefully sometimes.

>>
>> I find that with Xah's posts people argue the man and not his
>> points.

>
> Precisely, and thus they are the trolls: few of them trim followups,
> and all of them try to sound funny or clever in their attacks. Xah has
> something to say about technology, like what he says or not. His
> attackers just see an open mike and want to hear the sound of their
> own voice, which I certainly understand.
>
> And before anyone goes for that old argument from self-reference, the
> madding crowd succeeded once in their harrassment of The Xah so
> remaining silent is no option.
>
> p,k


It's good to see I am not alone in my views on some of the more
aggressive posters who seem to take delight in attacking Xah Lee. I was
wondering if I had backed myself into a corner with no chance of escape
for a moment. I found the comments on his elisp tutorial and reference
particularly offensive and destructive considering I know it to be of at
least some use as I referred to it quite a bit when trying some basic
customisations.

--
important and urgent problems of the technology of today are no longer the satisfactions of the primary needs or of archetypal wishes, but the reparation of the evils and damages by the technology of yesterday. ~Dennis Gabor, Innovations: Scientific, Technological and Social, 1970
 
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Jürgen Exner
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      01-02-2009
Richard Riley <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>discussion about alternative languages for modern development? Most news
>readers feature a kill thread command if you are not interested in the
>content. Certainly less extreme or ignorant than killing all posts from
>someone


Thank you for reminding me

*PLONK*

jue
 
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