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Why not Ruby?

 
 
Stanisław Halik
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Posts: n/a
 
      01-01-2009
In comp.lang.lisp r <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> Face it, the world needs people like Xah. Go check out his site, his
> insights of languages and tech is fascinating. The man lives in a
> world driven by common sense, and you know what they say --"Common
> sense is the least most common thing"-- just look around at the
> responses here.

Might hold true for some rants, but most of it's tl;dr drivel. For
instance, his critique of Lisp's homoiconicity is completely off-target.

> I come from a different world than IT, and I thought initially the IT
> world would be filled with intelligent, free thinking, and open minded
> people... BOY was i wrong! I would not turn my back on these people
> for a second, lest you catch a knife in it!

So-called "IT" is driven by capitalistic impulses. Dijkstra and his
followers get dismissed as ivory tower intellectuals.

FUT warning.

--
You only have power over people so long as you don’t take everything
away from them. But when you’ve robbed a man of everything he’s no longer
in your power — he’s free again. -- Aleksandr Isayevich Solzhenitsyn
 
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r
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      01-01-2009
On Jan 1, 2:05*am, Jason Rumney <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> On Jan 1, 3:12*pm, r <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
> > The man lives in a world driven by common sense

>
> "Common" sense suggests that his views are shared among the general
> populace. I don't see much evidence of that in the sometimes never-
> ending threads that frequently follow his postings. But it is good to
> start debates about making changes to the status quo, often the
> debates will result in worthwhile changes, even if those changes are
> not what he proposed. I just wish he would choose his venue a little
> more carefully sometimes.


I think if you will consider society as a whole, you will see that
most people don't display much sense at all. "Joe Blow" only cares
about paris hilton, britney spears, or janet jackson wardrobe
malfunctions. The only thing they contribute to society is human
excrement. So --"Common sense is the least most common thing"-- really
means there exists no sense as a commonality.

This can apply to higher educated people too, even Guido. Go and read
Xahs take on the Python official tutorial, you will find your self
agreeing with everything that he says. Guido filled it with so much
fluff and off topic BS, causing the learning process to shut down. The
only kind of person that might find it enjoying would be a fellow
Computer Science Graduate. I did not know it at the time but this
contributed to my late understanding of classes and regexes. And being
such a fanboy of Python and carrying such a high respect for Guido
that is hard for me to say, BUT it is the TRUTH nonetheless. Guido has
no business writing tutorials anymore, WHY you ask. Because he is too
smart, and too much on the inside. He cannot relate to the n00b
pythoneer, he has crossed the Rubicon. Less fluff more simple examples
are the key to quick learning. My love for python has blinded me to
some of the atrocities that exist here. I have many more examples from
the Official-TUT than Xah covered.

Don't take my word, judge for yourself...
http://xahlee.org/perl-python/xlali_skami_cukta.html

here is Xah's take on OOP, very good reading for beginners and
Gurus...
http://xahlee.org/Periodic_dosage_dir/t2/oop.html

If all Xah did was come here and say "Hey, python sucks donkey
dicks!", i would pay him no mind. But he brings much intelligence, and
vigor to an otherwise boring, and sometimes mindless newsgroup. What i
like about him is his out-side-the-box thinking style. He does not
give in to this BS "Proper Society" wants to push onto us. He is a
real rebel, but WITH a cause! And the cause is to bring common sense
back to a world of fluff an BS jargonisms. I don't always agree with
his thoughts, but most the time he's spot on. Open your min c.l.py.
Lest it close forever.

eliminate the life decline...
its time to change...
can't stay the same...
Revolution is my name!
-Phil Anselmo-
 
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Jrgen Exner
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      01-01-2009
r <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

[Why not Ruby?]

Becasue it is off topic in CL.perl.M just as in any other NG he posted
to.

>Face it, the world needs people like Xah. Go check out his site, his


Oh my good, the idiot discovered alter egos.

>There is nothing wrong with a person expressing their opinion on any
>subject. Apparently some of you need to get laid and calm down a
>little. Xah has just as much right as anyone here to post his
>thoughts, even if they are off topic.


Exactly everyone's point. He has exactly the same right as anybody else
which is exactly that NOBODY has the "right" to post off topic posts.
Sometimes they may be tolerated, on rare, special occasions even be
welcome. But by and large they are as disturbing as playing 'Love me
tender' during a perfomance of the Walkuere. I don't want to hear Elvis,
I paid my money for Wagner! If I wanted to listen to Elvis, then I would
go to an Elvis concert.

>Look, if you don't like what he
>is saying, DON'T F'IN READ IT!


He has been plonked a loooooooong time ago. It's just he newcomers, who
still respond to him. And no his alter ego with the unpronouncable name
of rt8396.

>Xah, I been watching your posts for sometime and it looks like you
>have been around for a while. Your profile shows one star & 410
>ratings. I have only been in usenet for 2 month and i have one star
>and 253 ratings(that will grow to much more after this post), most are


There are neither profiles nor stars or ratings on Usenet. Keep you
made-up nonsense to yourself.

jue
 
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r
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      01-01-2009
Xah Lee,
> I also didn't like the fact that ruby uses keyword "end" to indicate
> code block much as Pascal and Visual Basic, Logo, do. I don't like
> that.


You could not be more right Xah, the use of "end" in a language as
high level as Ruby is redundant, and idiotic. There are a few things
about Ruby i really like, but this "end" business is blasphemy. If
ruby did not use indentation, i would see the need for "end", or
braces, or whatever, but why use both indentation AND the "end" word?
Such stupidity. I guess Mats thought Ruby would look too much like
Python, ARE YOU KIDDING MATS?, you already took so much from Python
anyway, dropping the end statement won't change that. And heck, you
will gain many new users with out it's archaic redundancy!!!!

I must say at first i did not like the each method but it has grow on
me because of its space saving attributes. There are also some nice
shortcuts in Ruby that do not exist in Python. I am beginning to think
the perfect high level language would take the best for Ruby and
Python. The ultimate language with speed in mind, pythons clear
syntax, but with shortcuts for gurus. I would probably lean more
towards python scoping and classes than ruby, but python classes need
a little less redundancy also. Of course pythons list, dict, strings
in my opinion just can't be beat, and regex forget-a-about-it! Python
rules here. Even though Ruby has built in support, python's is much
more elegant. I really like pythons handling of modules and
module.class.method syntax.

Both languages have much to offer, i believe though Python has a
better base, it just needs some cleaning up, and shortcut syntax so
moderate/Gurus don't develop carpal tunnel too early




 
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Tomasz Rola
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Posts: n/a
 
      01-01-2009
On Thu, 1 Jan 2009, http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/(E-Mail Removed) wrote:

> On Wed, 31 Dec 2008 23:16:41 -0500, Kenneth Tilton <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
> >Xah Lee wrote:
> >> Just spent 3 hours looking into Ruby today. Here's my short impression
> >> for those interested.
> >>

>
> Be carefull what you say. If they pay me I would rip your and Xah's
> guts out in a second.
>
> sln


Too much champagne? A guy (XL) is sometimes off topic and I don't always
agree with his postings - if I find the subject somewhat worthy, I usually
skim through it, this is how I have found myself knee deep in this
strange exchange between XL's supporters and opponents. And his website is
big like a magazine and full of strange, sometimes not interesting or hard
to assess stuff (it needs time to read and time is hard to find nowadays).
But sometimes, what he writes is informative, too. A bit redundant but
still, I would give him a small "plus", rather than "zero" or "minus".

But I do not remember him being blunt or agressive.

Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... **
** **
** Tomasz Rola (E-Mail Removed) **
 
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Paul Rubin
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Posts: n/a
 
      01-01-2009
r <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:
> I am beginning to think
> the perfect high level language would take the best for Ruby and
> Python. The ultimate language with speed in mind, pythons clear
> syntax, but with shortcuts for gurus.


You might like Tim Sweeney's POPL talk:

http://www.st.cs.uni-saarland.de/edu...ocs/sweeny.pdf

> Of course pythons list, dict, strings in my opinion just can't be beat,


On many occasions I've wished for a functional dictionary
implementation in Python, like Haskell's Data.Map. One of these years
I'll get around to writing one.
 
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Fuzzyman
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      01-01-2009
On Jan 1, 8:32*pm, Paul Rubin <http://(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
[snip...]
> > Of course pythons list, dict, strings in my opinion just can't be beat,

>
> On many occasions I've wished for a functional dictionary
> implementation in Python, like Haskell's Data.Map. *One of these years
> I'll get around to writing one.


Care to save me the effort of looking it up and tell me what Data.Map
does that Python's dict doesn't?

I guess if it is functional then every mutation must copy and return a
new data structure? (Which will be much more efficient in Haskell than
in Python - Haskell can share most of the underlying data whereas
Python would have to create a new dict every time. At least it only
stores references.)

Michael Foord
--
http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/
 
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Richard Riley
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      01-01-2009
Jason Rumney <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:

> On Jan 1, 3:12*pm, r <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>> The man lives in a world driven by common sense

>
> "Common" sense suggests that his views are shared among the general
> populace. I don't see much evidence of that in the sometimes never-
> ending threads that frequently follow his postings. But it is good to
> start debates about making changes to the status quo, often the
> debates will result in worthwhile changes, even if those changes are
> not what he proposed. I just wish he would choose his venue a little
> more carefully sometimes.


I find that with Xah's posts people argue the man and not his
points. And they argue the man because he refuses to be brow beaten by
those who do not like to be criticised or are too think skinned. I
rarely find his posts controversial but always interesting. His ELisp
tutorial is far and away better than anything else out there for the
programmer moving to Elisp IMO. He backs up his points with reasons and
supportive evidence and rarely with "because I'm experienced and thats
the way it is" - something not every one takes the time to do. He is
clearly intelligent, thoughtful and experienced if a little lacking in
finesse at times. The world needs more Xah lees.

--
important and urgent problems of the technology of today are no longer the satisfactions of the primary needs or of archetypal wishes, but the reparation of the evils and damages by the technology of yesterday. ~Dennis Gabor, Innovations: Scientific, Technological and Social, 1970
 
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Richard Riley
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      01-01-2009
r <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:

> On Jan 1, 2:05*am, Jason Rumney <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>> On Jan 1, 3:12*pm, r <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>
>> > The man lives in a world driven by common sense

>>
>> "Common" sense suggests that his views are shared among the general
>> populace. I don't see much evidence of that in the sometimes never-
>> ending threads that frequently follow his postings. But it is good to
>> start debates about making changes to the status quo, often the
>> debates will result in worthwhile changes, even if those changes are
>> not what he proposed. I just wish he would choose his venue a little
>> more carefully sometimes.

>
> I think if you will consider society as a whole, you will see that
> most people don't display much sense at all. "Joe Blow" only cares
> about paris hilton, britney spears, or janet jackson wardrobe
> malfunctions. The only thing they contribute to society is human
> excrement. So --"Common sense is the least most common thing"-- really
> means there exists no sense as a commonality.
>
> This can apply to higher educated people too, even Guido. Go and read
> Xahs take on the Python official tutorial, you will find your self
> agreeing with everything that he says. Guido filled it with so much
> fluff and off topic BS, causing the learning process to shut down. The
> only kind of person that might find it enjoying would be a fellow
> Computer Science Graduate. I did not know it at the time but this
> contributed to my late understanding of classes and regexes. And being
> such a fanboy of Python and carrying such a high respect for Guido
> that is hard for me to say, BUT it is the TRUTH nonetheless. Guido has
> no business writing tutorials anymore, WHY you ask. Because he is too
> smart, and too much on the inside. He cannot relate to the n00b
> pythoneer, he has crossed the Rubicon. Less fluff more simple examples
> are the key to quick learning. My love for python has blinded me to
> some of the atrocities that exist here. I have many more examples from
> the Official-TUT than Xah covered.
>
> Don't take my word, judge for yourself...
> http://xahlee.org/perl-python/xlali_skami_cukta.html
>
> here is Xah's take on OOP, very good reading for beginners and
> Gurus...
> http://xahlee.org/Periodic_dosage_dir/t2/oop.html
>
> If all Xah did was come here and say "Hey, python sucks donkey
> dicks!", i would pay him no mind. But he brings much intelligence, and
> vigor to an otherwise boring, and sometimes mindless newsgroup. What i
> like about him is his out-side-the-box thinking style. He does not
> give in to this BS "Proper Society" wants to push onto us. He is a
> real rebel, but WITH a cause! And the cause is to bring common sense
> back to a world of fluff an BS jargonisms. I don't always agree with
> his thoughts, but most the time he's spot on. Open your min c.l.py.
> Lest it close forever.


Great post and I agree with you 100%.

--
important and urgent problems of the technology of today are no longer the satisfactions of the primary needs or of archetypal wishes, but the reparation of the evils and damages by the technology of yesterday. ~Dennis Gabor, Innovations: Scientific, Technological and Social, 1970
 
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Richard Riley
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      01-01-2009

Tim Greer <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:

> Giampaolo Rodola' wrote:
>
>> This is not a Ruby group.
>> I recommend you to go waste your time there.

>
> That poster has a frequent habit of cross posting to multiple,
> irrelevant news groups. There's no rhyme or reason to it. It's best
> to just filter the guy's posts.


No rhyme nor reason? It's quite clear, to me, why.

How is a comparison article not relevant when he is trying to stimulate
discussion about alternative languages for modern development? Most news
readers feature a kill thread command if you are not interested in the
content. Certainly less extreme or ignorant than killing all posts from
someone who clearly has interesting things to say about development
practises and tools.
 
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