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perl should be improved and perl6

 
 
Uri Guttman
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      04-06-2008
>>>>> "VR" == V Ronans <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:

VR> Uri Guttman wrote:

VR> I'm a regular reader.

not a regular contributor. that downgrades your comments here. by a lot.


VR> 2) I'm not sure you should be preaching about using proper grammar when
VR> you don't even bother to capitalize the first letter of your sentences.

WELL I CAN HIT THE SHIFT KEY IF YOU WANT!!!

>> posters who also don't post according to this group's guidelines. it
>> is even covered in an FAQ why perl is not an acronym.


VR> Actually it is also an acronym:

wrong.

VR> http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=perl

VR> The spelling "Perl" is preferred over the older "PERL" (even though some
VR> explain the language's name as originating in the acronym for "Practical
VR> Extraction and Report Language"). The program that interprets/compiles
VR> Perl code is called "perl", typically "/usr/local/bin/perl" or
VR> "/usr/bin/perl".

wrong again.

VR> http://www.acronymfinder.com/af-quer...l&string=exact

VR> "Practical Extraction and Report Language"

wrong one more time.

VR> There is a known acronym PERL out there, so I really do not think you
VR> can blame people for using it.

and it was first named pearl after larry wall's mother. but that name
was already taken by another language so he dropped the 'a'.

FROM THE PERL FAQ (a more definitive source than the crap you posted):

What's the difference between "perl" and "Perl"?

One bit. Oh, you weren't talking ASCII? Larry now uses
"Perl" to signify the language proper and "perl" the
implementation of it, i.e. the current interpreter. Hence
Tom's quip that "Nothing but perl can parse Perl." You may
or may not choose to follow this usage. For example,
parallelism means "awk and perl" and "Python and Perl" look
OK, while "awk and Perl" and "Python and perl" do not. But
never write "PERL", because perl is not an acronym,
apocryphal folklore and post-facto expansions
notwithstanding.


>> perl and other langs can be in whatever case but seeing it wrong when
>> it can be corrected is not the crime you make it out to be.


VR> I NEVER said it was a crime. Please do NOT insert words into my
VR> mouth. My gripe has been and is with the way some of you choose
VR> to "correct" it; namely, the sarcastic attitude. Again, this
VR> serves no useful purpose other than to make such people you are
VR> attempting to correct perhaps look at you with a strange look and
VR> wonder why you care so much, especially when you don't even care
VR> enough to properly case your words.

you tone is worse than anyone who comments on perl vs PERL. so meet the
pot, kettle.

as for my casing, that is your problem. i choose to case my postings
this way. my documentation, POD, writing, teaching, slides are all cased
as others want them.

uri

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Uri Guttman
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      04-06-2008
>>>>> "GE" == Gordon Etly <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:

GE> As someone else pointed out, in many other groups centered around a
GE> particular programming language, no one pays this kind of attention of
GE> people like your self seem to. Second, why is it people like yourself
GE> can never give a straight answer as to why it is of such high
GE> importance? If someone is a good programmer with the Perl language, does
GE> it really make a difference how they spell it as long as they know what
GE> they are doing? I mean you have people like Abigail who use their own
GE> quote characters, Uri who can't use a bloody shift key, etc, and you're
GE> worried about how some random bloke cases the word/term Perl?

because it is the newer users who need to learn the difference. saying
'perl' or 'PERL' has a bug are very different. being technically
accurate is a critical skill to a coder so using the correct name for
the language vs the compiler vs a backronym is important. if a perl
hacker wannabe can't get that right, they need to be told about it. i
have the same issue when i see jobs for 'PERL'. that is important to me
as i work in the job placement field and would never use that form.

uri

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Uri Guttman ------ (E-Mail Removed) -------- http://www.sysarch.com --
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Uri Guttman
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      04-06-2008
>>>>> "GE" == Gordon Etly <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:

GE> http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=PERL

GE> The spelling "Perl" is preferred over the older "PERL" (even though
GE> some explain the language's name as originating in the acronym for
GE> "Practical Extraction and Report Language"). The program that
GE> interprets/compiles Perl code is called "perl", typically
GE> "/usr/local/bin/perl" or "/usr/bin/perl".


that is very wrong. see my other post about this. perl was never
originally an acronym and you can ask larry. hmm, maybe i should the
next time i have dinner with him.

>> I also use it as a quick way to see if someone knows what he/she is
>> talking about. Someone who claims to be a PERL programmer tells me
>> that I probably never want to maintain his/her code.


GE> That's a very poor measuring stick. Seems also hypocritical, considering
GE> some of the more well known people in this group are known for doing
GE> thing differently (Abigail for her interesting alternate forms of
GE> quoting in replies, Uri for his inability to use the shift key, and so
GE> forth), to judge some random bloke who may also choose to be different.

you are saying the same garbage again. try to be original in your
flamage. me thinks i should also judge your perl code based on your poor
postings. do you have a cpan id?

uri

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Uri Guttman ------ (E-Mail Removed) -------- http://www.sysarch.com --
----- Perl Code Review , Architecture, Development, Training, Support ------
--------- Free Perl Training --- http://perlhunter.com/college.html ---------
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Johann Kappacher
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      04-06-2008
Tim Smith wrote:
> Wait a second...let me see if I have this straight:
>
> Poster #1 spells Perl "perl".
>
> Poster #2 is a jerk about that.
>
> Poster #3 calls poster #2 a jerk, and defends "perl".
>
> You take exception to that, coming out strongly against those who
> spell it "perl", while spelling it that way every time you
> use it in your condemnation of people who spell it "perl"!?


Thank you, this is the most valuable posting in this thread.

People are spinning around with their thoughts, losing "the point"
because of their emotional outbreaks.

Ok, Uri is right in saying that the FAQ explains it well.
But the FAQ also states that you can follow the guideline ... or not.

Uri is writing "perl actually has stronger typing than many langs" and
(in a followup) "perl and other langs".

He is eager to participate in the flame war, shooting against
"non-regulars".

But I miss a statement saying like: "Well, I have mis-typed Perl, but
nonetheless, I defend a correct typing, because it makes sense and is
part of our Perl culture!"

--jk



 
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Ben Bullock
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      04-06-2008
On Sun, 06 Apr 2008 03:32:19 +0000, John Bokma wrote:

> A perl programmer is not the same as a Perl programmer. A perl hacker is
> not the same as a Perl hacker.


This presents us with a serious problem. When we speak, we cannot
distinguish between capital letters and small letters. So there is a
danger of confusion, if we should tell people "I'm a Perl programmer",
they may make a mistake and think we are "perl programmers". Then all
hell will break loose. So if we say this rather than write it down, we
should be sure to always say "I'm a Perl with a capital P programmer" or
"I'm a perl with a small p hacker". Or, to reduce unnecessary wordiness,
we can carry a card with us when we speak, and whenever we say the word
"Perl" or "perl" in public, we can produce the card and point to the
correct version of the letter with our forefinger.

> And as I already wrote, PERL misleads people, they see PERL, and they
> think it's an acronym.


And then they invest all their life savings into PERL and loose it all,
or something?

 
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A. Sinan Unur
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      04-06-2008
"Gordon Etly" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in
news:(E-Mail Removed):

> John Bokma wrote:

....
>>
>> Moreover, Perl is the programming language, and perl is the
>> executable, hence there is a good reason to be case sensitive.
>> Hence, perl [...] is poorly typed seems to refer to the
>> executable, hence Dr. Ruud's question.

>
> As someone else pointed out, in many other groups centered around
> a particular programming language, no one pays this kind of
> attention of people like your self seem to.


Have you tried posting a question about a non-existence language
called C/C++ in comp.lang.c?

Think of the distinction between Perl and perl a clue-meter. We
already know the contributions Uri has made to this group and to my
work with his modules.

When an unknown poster shows his/her ignorance, someone tries to
give that person a hand by providing a correction. The response to
the correction helps us evaluate if it would ever be worth spending
our time answering questions by this person.

Sinan

--
A. Sinan Unur <(E-Mail Removed)>
(remove .invalid and reverse each component for email address)

comp.lang.perl.misc guidelines on the WWW:
http://www.rehabitation.com/clpmisc/
 
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A. Sinan Unur
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      04-06-2008
"David Formosa (aka ? the Platypus)" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in
news:(E-Mail Removed) :

> You will find that people don't care about the spelling of
> random words, its only when people start talking about
> Perl specific words does it start to mattor.




--
A. Sinan Unur <(E-Mail Removed)>
(remove .invalid and reverse each component for email address)

comp.lang.perl.misc guidelines on the WWW:
http://www.rehabitation.com/clpmisc/
 
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Johann Kappacher
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      04-06-2008
Uri Guttman wrote:
> because it is the newer users who need to learn the difference. saying
> 'perl' or 'PERL' has a bug are very different. being technically
> accurate is a critical skill to a coder so using the correct name for
> the language vs the compiler vs a backronym is important. if a perl
> hacker wannabe can't get that right, they need to be told about it.


Hi, I recognize your claim on this topic, but I do not back your behavior.

You cannot criticize the [pP]erl mis-typing of newbies and practice this
mis-typing yourself in the same news thread (and use such an emotional
wording).

As I have posted in a reply to Tim Smith's posting:
....
> Ok, Uri is right in saying that the FAQ explains it well.
> But the FAQ also states that you can follow the guideline ... or not.
>
> Uri is writing "perl actually has stronger typing than many langs" and (in a followup) "perl and other langs".
>
> He is eager to participate in the flame war, shooting against "non-regulars".
>
> But I miss a statement saying like: "Well, I have mis-typed Perl, but nonetheless, I defend a correct typing, because it makes sense and is part of our Perl culture!"


--jk
 
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Gordon Etly
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      04-06-2008
David Formosa (aka ? the Platypus) wrote:
> On Sat, 5 Apr 2008 21:17:52 -0700, Gordon Etly <(E-Mail Removed)>
> wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> > As someone else pointed out, in many other groups centered around a
> > particular programming language, no one pays this kind of attention
> > of people like your self seem to.

>
> Its a marker of if your inside the group of perl culture or out of
> it. Its a short cut to find out if you have read and understood the
> FAQ.


But it's a rather indicator. What is someone wants to be a little
different, even after having read the FAQ? What if they typed 'man perl'
or 'perldoc perl' early on in their Perl life and just went with the
first few lines:

$ perldoc perl | head -n 10
PERL(1) User Contributed Perl Documentation
PERL(1)
^^^^


NAME
perl - Practical Extraction and Report Language
^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

This alone should make seeing "PERL" not surprising, weather one has
read the FAQ or not. If various regulars can be different in their own
way, it's rather hypocritical to bare down on not-so-regular people (or
are they... many people might actually be //regular readers//) in this
manner.


> [...]
>
> > If someone is a good programmer with the Perl language, does
> > it really make a difference how they spell it as long as they know
> > what they are doing?

>
> Because reading the FAQ, paying attention to detail and understanding
> what people tell them are aspects of knowing how to program in Perl.


No, you can judge someone purely on grounds like that. If someone wants
to write "PERL", whether based on the man/perldoc page for "perl", that
should be their choice. It is unfair to assume they are 'unworthy'
simply because they want to me a little different. Again, some well
known members of this group do things differently as well (Abigail's
non-standard quoting, Uri's refusal to properly use the shift key and
such) yet it's a crime for others to be different in more or less the
same way?

> You will find that people don't care about the spelling of random
> words, its only when people start talking about Perl specific words
> does it start to mattor.


Yes, but "PERL" and "Practical Extraction and Report Language" come fro
mthe man/perldoc page for "perl", how can one get more official then
something's own man page? Are you saying the FAQ for this group, a user
contributed document, as valvuable as it may be, carries more weight
then Perl's own man page?

--
G.Etly


 
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Gordon Etly
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      04-06-2008
A. Sinan Unur wrote:
> "Gordon Etly" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in
> news:(E-Mail Removed):
>
>> John Bokma wrote:

> ...
>>>
>>> Moreover, Perl is the programming language, and perl is the
>>> executable, hence there is a good reason to be case sensitive.
>>> Hence, perl [...] is poorly typed seems to refer to the
>>> executable, hence Dr. Ruud's question.

>>
>> As someone else pointed out, in many other groups centered around
>> a particular programming language, no one pays this kind of
>> attention of people like your self seem to.

>
> Have you tried posting a question about a non-existence language
> called C/C++ in comp.lang.c?


Yes I have. They are related languages. C++ is based on C. Most people
seem to understand that, while also understanding what sets them apart.

> Think of the distinction between Perl and perl a clue-meter.


But that is just wrong. If the man/perldoc page for "perl" reads like,


$ perldoc perl | head -n 10
PERL(1) User Contributed Perl Documentation PERL(1)
^^^^

NAME
perl - Practical Extraction and Report Language
^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

then would not someone using it as such an acronym be in fact //more//
clue-ful [sic], having read the man/perdoc pages? I mean can the
FAQ/guidelines, a user created contribution, as valuable as it may be,
really carry more weight then Perl's own documentation?

> We already know the contributions Uri has made to this group and to my
> work with his modules.


That doesn't excuse his blatant hypocrisy; he himself uses "perl" when
telling people NOT to use it. Being a contributor doesn't mean one does
not have to follow what they preach.

> When an unknown poster shows his/her ignorance, someone tries to
> give that person a hand by providing a correction. The response to
> the correction helps us evaluate if it would ever be worth spending
> our time answering questions by this person.


Perhaps, but the point here is the correction itself is not necessarly
correct. Not if Perl's own man pages and perdoc mena anything.

--
G.Etly


 
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