«

>>>>> "f" == fishfry <> writes:

f> In article <>,
f> Keith Keller <kkeller-> wrote:

>> On 2007-03-21, Jamie <> wrote:
>> > In <GMhMh.21970$> ,
>> > Timo Jokinen <> mentions:
>> >
>> >>Sorry but if you doesn't want to help him/her don't bother to
>> >>write your sarcastic's answer's.
>> >
>> > Well said!
>> >
>> > This is part of the reason perl is loosing ground to other languages like
>> > PHP.
>>
>> I'm sure you have data to support this claim!
>>

f> Just look at the Craigslist help-wanteds.

and look at jobs.perl.org. i bet the job levels are signifigantly higher
for the perl jobs as for the php kiddie jobs. notice how many of the
perl jobs want stuff beyond the web and academic backgrounds. i would
find it amusing to see a php job which wanted a BS in computer
science. when you grow up you will want a perl job.

uri

--
Uri Guttman ------ -------- http://www.stemsystems.com
--Perl Consulting, Stem Development, Systems Architecture, Design and Coding-
Search or Offer Perl Jobs ---------------------------- http://jobs.perl.org

On 2007-04-02, fishfry <> wrote:
> In article <>,
> Keith Keller <kkeller-> wrote:
>>
>> I'm sure you have data to support this claim!
>
> Just look at the Craigslist help-wanteds.

Wow, I'm now convinced! I'm going to switch to PHP right now.

--keith

--
kkeller-
(try just my userid to email me)
AOLSFAQ=http://www.therockgarden.ca/aolsfaq.txt
see X- headers for PGP signature information

On 2007-04-02, Uri Guttman <> wrote:
>
> and look at jobs.perl.org. i bet the job levels are signifigantly higher
> for the perl jobs as for the php kiddie jobs. notice how many of the
> perl jobs want stuff beyond the web and academic backgrounds. i would
> find it amusing to see a php job which wanted a BS in computer
> science. when you grow up you will want a perl job.

s/when/if/;

--keith

--
kkeller-
(try just my userid to email me)
AOLSFAQ=http://www.therockgarden.ca/aolsfaq.txt
see X- headers for PGP signature information

In <>,
Uri Guttman <> mentions:
>>>>>> "f" == fishfry <> writes:
>perl isn't in any decline. just that more kiddies who can't code are
>using php. fine with us. perl is used for much more outside the web
>anyhow. ever heard php called the ducttape of the internet?

I'd still say perl *is* in decline, certainly in regards to small
business use. Definately in regards to the jobs I run across these days.

Seems pretty obvious to me.

In the past, perl was used a lot by smaller businesses (and even hobby websites)
I know this, because I took on a lot of perl projects in those days. Nowadays,
those jobs are all but gone, replaced with PHP.

Webmasters and people who used to hire "perl monkeys" now look to PHP, I've
spoken with them about doing stuff in perl, they often tell me it would be a
"step backwards".

Now, you and I know perl is /NOT/ a step backwards! but it doesn't matter, we're
not the customer. It's all about perception.

This is a big deal for anyone looking for smaller contracts.

> f> A PHP programmer comes here with a request for a how-to on the
> f> standard db connection/retrieval syntax; and he gets a hearty ****
> f> YOU from several different people. It's really sad.
>
>well, did you try to help him? no. the bitching types are always the
>ones who never offer help. 100% of the time this is the case. so you

I'm "bitching" about the overall attitude... and I did offer to help the original
poster. Hope you understand my motive though, I like perl.. a lot.. I want
it to be used everywhere.

I know people who will not use perl because the perception is that perl
programmers are jerks. (same with apple, unix and particularly linux)

> everyone comes to the perl group as they claim we are
>smarter. hmmm, smarter coders use perl but perl is losing ground. sounds
>like the kiddies are learning that php is not as good as they hoped and
>they will never learn more from their fellow php kiddies. too bad.

I don't believe anyone claims perl coders are "smarter" except maybe the
perl coders themselves.

Although... I'd agree with the perl coders

That aside, let them ask, don't assume they're stupid, could be they're just
seeking out a little human connection, could be they are overwhelmed by
all the available documentation.

Whats more, there's no law saying anyone has to answer something they don't
feel like answering.

Bottom line, if you're someone who likes perl and wants more perl
opportunities for everyone... be nice to people.

BTW, uri, I heard you on perlcast, good job!


Jamie
--
http://www.geniegate.com Custom web programming
Perl * Java * UNIX User Management Solutions

Jamie wrote:
> In <>, Uri Guttman <> mentions:
>> perl isn't in any decline. just that more kiddies who can't code are
>> using php. fine with us. perl is used for much more outside the web
>> anyhow. ever heard php called the ducttape of the internet?
>
> I'd still say perl *is* in decline, certainly in regards to small
> business use. Definately in regards to the jobs I run across these days.

No, Perl surely isn't in any decline. It's acceptance is.
The "BAF" (beginners acceptance factor) of Perl is quite low.

> Webmasters and people who used to hire "perl monkeys" now look to PHP, I've
> spoken with them about doing stuff in perl, they often tell me it would be a
> "step backwards".

They'd probably "decide" somehow to avoid any technology
which doesn't have any hype at all. That technology wouldn't
(predictably) attract a lot of new soldiers, so its possibly
doomed. Wouldn't you feel that way too (If you weren't you?) ...


Regards

Mirco

In <euqdil$dc$>,
Mirco Wahab <wahab-> mentions:
>Jamie wrote:
>> In <>, Uri Guttman <> mentions:
>>> perl isn't in any decline. just that more kiddies who can't code are
>>> using php. fine with us. perl is used for much more outside the web
>>> anyhow. ever heard php called the ducttape of the internet?
>>
>> I'd still say perl *is* in decline, certainly in regards to small
>> business use. Definately in regards to the jobs I run across these days.
>
>No, Perl surely isn't in any decline. It's acceptance is.
>The "BAF" (beginners acceptance factor) of Perl is quite low.

How can acceptance be low without perl itself being in decline? Please
don't misunderstand, I actually want to agree with you.

In case anyone wonders.. I'm not suggesting perl will ever go away, it's used
in so many other places that it'll always be around.

>> Webmasters and people who used to hire "perl monkeys" now look to PHP, I've
>> spoken with them about doing stuff in perl, they often tell me it would be a
>> "step backwards".
>
>They'd probably "decide" somehow to avoid any technology
>which doesn't have any hype at all. That technology wouldn't
>(predictably) attract a lot of new soldiers, so its possibly
>doomed. Wouldn't you feel that way too (If you weren't you?) ...

Well, that is basically my point. It's all about perception.

Your point is well taken, which explains why some of them are starting
to get a little loopy about "ruby" (I haven't messed with it yet, but have
read a bit of the docs for it, it definately reads like they've had
some serious PR folk working in the ruby trenches)

One thing I've run into with some people is that perl is "old" php is "new"
and the thing to do is "upgrade" to PHP. Newer is better. (regardless of
whether or not it actually is)

While it's pretty easy to debate a point like that, one doesn't score any
sales points by aggressively pounding facts into a potential client. Much as
one doesn't gain new users by insulting them. A person who does this may
be "right" but they'll still loose. (and in this case, we all loose)

Jamie
--
http://www.geniegate.com Custom web programming
Perl * Java * UNIX User Management Solutions

fishfry <> wrote:
> In article <>,
> (Jamie) wrote:
>
>> In <GMhMh.21970$> ,
>> Timo Jokinen <> mentions:
>> >Michael Vilain wrote:
>> >> In article <. com>,
>> >> "" <> wrote:

>> >>> I need to convert a PHP script into Perl.


>> >Sorry but if you doesn't want to help him/her don't bother to
>> >write your sarcastic's answer's.

>> Here we have a perfectly good opportunity to introduce someone to the wonders
>> of perl and we've thrown it away. The original poster will probably walk away
>> from all this thinking
>>
>> "Perl? phew! no thanks!"
>>
>>
>
> I'm happy to add a hearty Me Too to this thread.


I agree that this OP was treated poorly.


> This newsgroup has had
> an attitude problem from day one.


You mean since 1995?

Or do you mean since _your_ day one here?

Or was that just a figure of speech?

clp.misc used to be a much nicer place than it is now.


> I don't know if the newsgroup's
> attitude correlates with the decline of Perl as a development language;


It has an *inverse* correlation to the popularity of Perl as a
development language.

Before "Perl = CGI" it was a bunch of like-minded programmers helping
each other.


--
Tad McClellan SGML consulting
Perl programming
Fort Worth, Texas

>>>>> "J" == Jamie <> writes:

J> In the past, perl was used a lot by smaller businesses (and
J> even hobby websites) I know this, because I took on a lot of
J> perl projects in those days. Nowadays, those jobs are all but
J> gone, replaced with PHP.

Yes, PHP is easier to write toy websites in. This has a lot to do
with mod_php being installed by default on most cut-rate web hosts,
and a lot to do with the false economy of PHP.

J> Webmasters and people who used to hire "perl monkeys" now look
J> to PHP, I've spoken with them about doing stuff in perl, they
J> often tell me it would be a "step backwards".

Unfortunate; if they're not willing to listen to technically skilled
people I don't think they're the kind of people I want to work for.

J> I know people who will not use perl because the perception is
J> that perl programmers are jerks. (same with apple, unix and
J> particularly linux)

If they don't want to use a superior product because their feelings
get hurt, it's really their loss. If they want to show up here and
write code for the gimme-gimme posters, they're more than welcome to.

In other words: you have the ability to post to this newsgroup too.
If you don't like what other people are posting, post more of what you
want to see. Put up or shut up.

Charlton


--
Charlton Wilbur

>>>>> "J" == Jamie <> writes:

J> In <>,
J> Uri Guttman <> mentions:
>>>>>>> "f" == fishfry <> writes:
>> perl isn't in any decline. just that more kiddies who can't code are
>> using php. fine with us. perl is used for much more outside the web
>> anyhow. ever heard php called the ducttape of the internet?

J> I'd still say perl *is* in decline, certainly in regards to small
J> business use. Definately in regards to the jobs I run across these days.

J> Seems pretty obvious to me.

then you are not looking for the right jobs


J> In the past, perl was used a lot by smaller businesses (and even
J> hobby websites) I know this, because I took on a lot of perl
J> projects in those days. Nowadays, those jobs are all but gone,
J> replaced with PHP.

smaller businesses don't count. they will always use the easy way out.

J> Webmasters and people who used to hire "perl monkeys" now look to
J> PHP, I've spoken with them about doing stuff in perl, they often
J> tell me it would be a "step backwards".

that is all web stuff. perl is used for much more non-web stuff than web
stuff. ever see a sysadmin use php to glue stuff?

J> I know people who will not use perl because the perception is that perl
J> programmers are jerks. (same with apple, unix and particularly linux)

and certified redmond kiddies are morons. bfd.

>> everyone comes to the perl group as they claim we are
>> smarter. hmmm, smarter coders use perl but perl is losing ground. sounds
>> like the kiddies are learning that php is not as good as they hoped and
>> they will never learn more from their fellow php kiddies. too bad.

J> I don't believe anyone claims perl coders are "smarter" except maybe the
J> perl coders themselves.

you haven't been around enough perl media. try irc sometimes and that is
what happens a lot. "oh, no one is in #otherchannel or they are too
dumb, help me with this regex. perler all know regexes better"

i think that is because perl hackers understand that regexes are a
language and we usually know other langs. too many kiddies barely know
php so regexes are greek to them.

J> That aside, let them ask, don't assume they're stupid, could be
J> they're just seeking out a little human connection, could be they
J> are overwhelmed by all the available documentation.

or not use to being a professional programmer. simpler answer. smarts
isn't the only thing. wanting to know how to program and putting in the
effort is major. just being a php/html monkey doesn't TEACH you much
other than bad coding habits.

J> Whats more, there's no law saying anyone has to answer something they don't
J> feel like answering.

then they get bad answers from moronzilla. we regulars do have to keep
some order here.

J> Bottom line, if you're someone who likes perl and wants more perl
J> opportunities for everyone... be nice to people.

i try until they exasperate me.

J> BTW, uri, I heard you on perlcast, good job!

thanx. i was nice there?

uri

--
Uri Guttman ------ -------- http://www.stemsystems.com
--Perl Consulting, Stem Development, Systems Architecture, Design and Coding-
Search or Offer Perl Jobs ---------------------------- http://jobs.perl.org

>>>>> "MD" == Michele Dondi <> writes:

MD> On Mon, 02 Apr 2007 09:26:24 -0400, Uri Guttman <>
MD> wrote:

>> or not use to being a professional programmer. simpler answer. smarts

MD> Remember that amateurs built Noah's Ark.
MD> Professionals built the Titanic.

but $DEITY designed the ark and arrogant humans designed the titanic.

and i don't use the word professional as someone who gets paid. i use it
as someone who chose a profession because they are good at it. amateur
and professional also mean the attitude you have about your work. you
can say a paid piece of work looks amateurish or a free piece looks
professional.

uri

--
Uri Guttman ------ -------- http://www.stemsystems.com
--Perl Consulting, Stem Development, Systems Architecture, Design and Coding-
Search or Offer Perl Jobs ---------------------------- http://jobs.perl.org