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Hello folks,

I tried lurking on but it stays jibberish to me.
Questions asked are responded with a jargon that is beyond my
comprehension and often in a tone you'll think twice to ask the next
question. So this is too heavy for me (yet?).
Is there a way that simple mortals can ask questions how to do things
with perl/ work with perl. Is there a newsgroup?
ok ok RTFM you'll say.
Obviously you don't understand my question and despair.

Andries Meijer

Andries wrote:
> I tried lurking on but it stays jibberish to me. Questions asked
> are responded with a jargon that is beyond my comprehension and
> often in a tone you'll think twice to ask the next question. So
> this is too heavy for me (yet?).

Actually, if you are referring to the "Novice..." thread you started,
you got plenty of useful advice. It's correct that nobody posted a
complete program, which is quite in order.

Please understand that this is not a help desk, it's not "write my
program for me for free" service!! (You also wrote me privately, and -
stupid as I may be - I sent you a complete program. Not sure if it
does exactly what you want, but it's a start.)

> Is there a way that simple mortals can ask questions how to do
> things with perl/ work with perl.

Absolutely. Provided, though, that those "mortals" *show* (not just
say) that they are interested in improving their Perl skill *and* that
they have made reasonable own efforts before posting.

> ok ok RTFM you'll say.

Yes. It can't be said too often.

> Obviously you don't understand my question and despair.

If you know no Perl, and are in such a hurry, the natural thing to do
is to *hire* somebody who helps you.

--
Gunnar Hjalmarsson
Email: http://www.gunnar.cc/cgi-bin/contact.pl

Andries wrote:
> Hello folks,
>
> I tried lurking on but it stays jibberish to me.
> Questions asked are responded with a jargon that is beyond my
> comprehension and often in a tone you'll think twice to ask the next
> question. So this is too heavy for me (yet?).
> Is there a way that simple mortals can ask questions how to do things
> with perl/ work with perl. Is there a newsgroup?
> ok ok RTFM you'll say.
> Obviously you don't understand my question and despair.
>
> Andries Meijer
There is a Perl beginnings list. That would probably be good for you.

http://learn.perl.org/

Robert wrote:
> Andries wrote:
>> Is there a way that simple mortals can ask questions how to do
>> things with perl/ work with perl. Is there a newsgroup?
>
> There is a Perl beginnings list. That would probably be good for
> you.
>
> http://learn.perl.org/

Even if I have never tried that list, I take for granted that you
cannot expect anybody to write your programs for you there either.

--
Gunnar Hjalmarsson
Email: http://www.gunnar.cc/cgi-bin/contact.pl

On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 01:36:25 +0200, Gunnar Hjalmarsson
<> wrote:

>Andries wrote:
>> I tried lurking on but it stays jibberish to me. Questions asked
>> are responded with a jargon that is beyond my comprehension and
>> often in a tone you'll think twice to ask the next question. So
>> this is too heavy for me (yet?).
>
>Actually, if you are referring to the "Novice..." thread you started,
>you got plenty of useful advice. It's correct that nobody posted a
>complete program, which is quite in order.
>
>Please understand that this is not a help desk, it's not "write my
>program for me for free" service!! (You also wrote me privately, and -
>stupid as I may be - I sent you a complete program. Not sure if it
>does exactly what you want, but it's a start.)
>
>> Is there a way that simple mortals can ask questions how to do
>> things with perl/ work with perl.
>
>Absolutely. Provided, though, that those "mortals" *show* (not just
>say) that they are interested in improving their Perl skill *and* that
>they have made reasonable own efforts before posting.
>
>> ok ok RTFM you'll say.
>
>Yes. It can't be said too often.
>
>> Obviously you don't understand my question and despair.
>
>If you know no Perl, and are in such a hurry, the natural thing to do
>is to *hire* somebody who helps you.

Gunnar,

point taken. I just wanted a start that's all.
If you are new to something, like i am then it is helpfull to have a
start.
You helped me very much but the program you gave me is not the end. It
is a start for me. I can understand what it "does" and helps me to
improve my skills.
I can now look in the faqs and docs and look to my specific needs.
People like me learn from doing and trying and stumbling.
I think, although i can understand your point, that you have a rather
pessimistic view.
When i wanted just a program i would pay (of course). i wanted a
program to learn.
So you helped me to learn. And that's all that i wanted. It was never
my intention to take advantage of anyone.

Andries

In article <>,
Andries <> wrote:
:I tried lurking on but it stays jibberish to me.
:Questions asked are responded with a jargon that is beyond my
:comprehension and often in a tone you'll think twice to ask the next
:question. So this is too heavy for me (yet?).

There is certainly some truth in what you say, Andries. In my
experience, some of the people who post here (even some of the regulars)
often seem very harsh unless you ask your questions exactly the "right"
way. The "experience" of clpm is a lot different than in most of
the other technical newsgroups that I frequent, but I understand that
there are some newsgroups that are *much* worse.

As I understand, one part of the reason that people can seem so harsh
is that clpm is not really considered to be a newsgroup about how to
program in perl, or about how to install perl, and especially not a
newsgroup about how to program in general (happening to use perl as the
language): clpm is, I understand, considered to be a newsgroup about
the perl language itself. For example, one can ask about a particular
obscure feature of perl, or talk about the future of perl, but to be
"in", you are expected to be talking abstractly. Asking about basic
features and how to fix simple programs is, unfortunately, often
responded to with what many would think of as hostility.


:Is there a way that simple mortals can ask questions how to do things
:with perl/ work with perl.

In practice, you can get away with a fair bit in clpm, if you know
a few key points:

- Do not post just asking whether something will work. The answer
you get back will be some variation on "Well, what happened when you
tried it?"

- If you do not understand something that is in the manuals, then
when you post, you should make sure that your posting shows clearly
that you have *read* the manuals. Do not just say "I don't know
how to do X": say "I've read the man page about X, and this sentance
confuses me, because I would interpret it as meaning Y, but when
I tried doing that with this bit of code, Z, I got back a response
that was different than Y."

- If something seems to be going wrong, then post a *short* example
of code that does not give the result you think it should. And
make sure that you 'use strict' and 'use warnings' in your example,
and that you run the example code -- if you just type the code in
from memory, then people may get hung up about any minor mistakes you
made.

- Take the time to read the manual pages first. Look through all of them,
even if you do not understand them the first time around. Become accustomed
to what -kind- of information is to be found on each manual page.

- Read the perl FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions). Again, if you don't
understand part of one of them the first time, that's okay -- but
if your question is answered in one of the FAQs and it appears that you
did not even *look* there, then people in clpm will often get impatient
with you.

- One of the most important points is that your posting should show
that you *tried*. perl is a big language, and it is okay to not understand
part of it, but people will tend to be most helpful they can tell
that you put some real effort into finding the answer yourself.

- People do not like to feel that you are taking advantage of them,
so never demand an answer or just expect them to fix your program,
and never ever ask people to do your homework for you.
Be polite, show that you are trying, and show that you are here to
learn, not to get others to do things you cannot be bothered to do.

- Try not to take harsh answers too personally. clpm can be stressful,
but keep in mind that the approach that a number of people in the
group have is the "tough love" approach -- not intended to offend,
but intended to teach people how to be more self-sufficient.


Even when you get to a much more advanced stage, and understand much of
what people say, and get to know the people who post a lot, and start
contributing answers yourself, you may still encounter what seems like
hostility from time to time. There are a lot of people who do not read
the newsgroup all the time, and you might get a response from someone
who has not happened to see your previous well-thought answers and
efforts to help people. So *sometimes*, in my experience, what you have
to do is "push back", and firmly (but politely) show the other person
that you know what you are talking about, that their snap answer did
not take some important considerations into account, and that their
answer was not entirely reasonable. Some of the regular posters have a
bit of a tendancy to criticize and "put down" questions that they do
not understand on first reading -- but those same people, once they do
understand, can turn out to be very helpful in suggesting interesting
approaches. Nearly all the regulars have something interesting to say,
once they respect that you are at least -trying-.


The last thing I would suggest, is that if you are going to hang
around clpm for a long time, is to use a newsreader that has a 'killfile'
function. Sometimes 'flamewars' start in clpm, and sometimes you may
find some authors that have interesting points but tend to end up
antagonizing people. It's only a newsgroup, you don't have to read
everything: learn when to ignore discussions or people that are
wearing you down more than they are helping you learn.

--
Rome was built one paycheck at a time. -- Walter Roberson

Andries <> wrote:

> Is there a way that simple mortals can ask questions how to do things
> with perl/ work with perl. Is there a newsgroup?


Yes, and you are in it.


> ok ok RTFM you'll say.


Well of course.

Spend ten minutes trying to find the answer to your question yourself.

If that doesn't work, then post away!

Have you seen the Posting Guidelines that are posted here frequently?


> Obviously you don't understand my question and despair.


Perhaps you have been looking at reference docs when what you
need it a tutorial?

If you have programmed in any other language, I recommend "Learning Perl".

If not, I recommend "Elements of Programming with Perl".


--
Tad McClellan SGML consulting
Perl programming
Fort Worth, Texas

Andries wrote...

> Hello folks,
>
> I tried lurking on but it stays jibberish to me.
> Questions asked are responded with a jargon that is beyond my
> comprehension and often in a tone you'll think twice to ask the next
> question. So this is too heavy for me (yet?).
> Is there a way that simple mortals can ask questions how to do things
> with perl/ work with perl. Is there a newsgroup?
> ok ok RTFM you'll say.
> Obviously you don't understand my question and despair.
>
> Andries Meijer



Hi Andries,

I see you've already received some very comprehensive (and patient and
courteous) replies to your questions. Every reply you get is intended to
be helpful in some way. If it's not then explain why not or ask for
clarification (after you've RTM). If it is then say thank you. You
should get more involved in your own threads. The key to a good answer
is a good question.

guide here:
http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

In article <c6hi6t$cci8s$>, Gunnar Hjalmarsson wrote:
> Andries wrote:
>> I tried lurking on but it stays jibberish to me. Questions asked
>> are responded with a jargon that is beyond my comprehension and
>> often in a tone you'll think twice to ask the next question. So
>> this is too heavy for me (yet?).
>
> ...
>
>> Obviously you don't understand my question and despair.
>
> If you know no Perl, and are in such a hurry, the natural thing to do
> is to *hire* somebody who helps you.

Alternatively, you might realize that if you really want to learn how to do
something substantial (even if not particularly advanced), you will be
greatly rewarded if you let go of your impatience, slow down, relax
and enjoy the learning process. Buy a good perl book with some good
examples and have fun with it. ("Learning Perl" may be a good place to
start.)

Just a suggestion.

--
Jim Cochrane;
[When responding by email, include the term non-spam in the subject line to
get through my spam filter.]

In article <c6hjas$c832u$>, Gunnar Hjalmarsson wrote:
> Robert wrote:
>> Andries wrote:
>>> Is there a way that simple mortals can ask questions how to do
>>> things with perl/ work with perl. Is there a newsgroup?
>>
>> There is a Perl beginnings list. That would probably be good for
>> you.
>>
>> http://learn.perl.org/
>
> Even if I have never tried that list, I take for granted that you
> cannot expect anybody to write your programs for you there either.

Unless you pay them appropriately for it

--
Jim Cochrane;
[When responding by email, include the term non-spam in the subject line to
get through my spam filter.]