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Recommendation for a text

 
 
Kaz Kylheku
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      03-07-2012
On 2012-03-06, Patrick Scheible <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/(E-Mail Removed) (Joe keane) writes:
>
>> In article <17597176.384.1330953683846.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@ynca15>,
>> John Coleman <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>>Also - I am open to ideas about projects for the students to work on.

>>
>> The first 'major' programs i wrote for both BASIC and Pascal were
>> adventure games. This is how i learned that Pascal sucks.

>
> Pascal sucks for major programs because it was designed for teaching,
> not for major programs.


Note: so was BASIC.
 
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Ian Collins
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      03-07-2012
On 03/ 7/12 12:53 PM, Patrick Scheible wrote:
> (E-Mail Removed) (Joe keane) writes:
>
>> In article<17597176.384.1330953683846.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@ynca15>,
>> John Coleman<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>> Also - I am open to ideas about projects for the students to work on.

>>
>> The first 'major' programs i wrote for both BASIC and Pascal were
>> adventure games. This is how i learned that Pascal sucks.

>
> Pascal sucks for major programs because it was designed for teaching,
> not for major programs.


The first "major program" I worked on was written in DEC
MicroPower/Pascal on a PDP11. A surprisingly good environment for its
day. So with the right support, Pascal isn't too bad.

I'm somewhat surprised how little google has on it..

--
Ian Collins
 
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Fritz Wuehler
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      03-07-2012
Ian Collins <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> On 03/ 7/12 12:53 PM, Patrick Scheible wrote:
> > (E-Mail Removed) (Joe keane) writes:
> >
> >> In article<17597176.384.1330953683846.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@ynca15>,
> >> John Coleman<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> >>> Also - I am open to ideas about projects for the students to work on.
> >>
> >> The first 'major' programs i wrote for both BASIC and Pascal were
> >> adventure games. This is how i learned that Pascal sucks.

> >
> > Pascal sucks for major programs because it was designed for teaching,
> > not for major programs.


The Wirth Pascal sucks because it's from Wirth, it's a teaching language,
it's a one pass compiler, and it is unsuited for doing any serious work
because of critical, built-in limitations. Kernighan (or was it Ritchie?)
wrote a paper that nails the coffin shut on the original without much effort.

> The first "major program" I worked on was written in DEC
> MicroPower/Pascal on a PDP11. A surprisingly good environment for its
> day. So with the right support, Pascal isn't too bad.


Extensions to Pascal have made it perfectly usable, depending on which
version you use. You can't say "Pascal is" or "Pascal isn't" anything until
you specify which implementation of Pascal you are talking about.

 
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nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com
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      03-07-2012
On Tuesday, March 6, 2012 5:43:27 PM UTC, jgharston wrote:
> Ian Collins wrote:
> > C and C++ still dominate the embedded and non-windows system programming
> > space, neither is dying and one hasn't replaced the other.

>
> Just wait, I'm sure Vista will be shipping on washing machines
> soon.


I've programmed semi-embedded on Windows. In C++.
 
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ArifulHossain tuhin
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      03-07-2012
On Tuesday, March 6, 2012 2:09:19 AM UTC+6, Kleuske wrote:
> On Mon, 05 Mar 2012 15:27:43 +0100, jacob navia saw fit to publish the
> following:
>
> > Le 05/03/12 14:21, John Coleman a écrit :
> >>

> > You can use my compiler system and its associated text book: "An
> > introduction to C programming using lcc-win".
> >
> > It has several advantages:
> >
> > o It is free of charge (the compiler AND the introduction) o It starts
> > from the ground up, but covers sophisticated topics
> > like in-depth floating point analysis, memory allocation strategies
> > and many others.
> >
> > o It is geared to lcc-win but all extensions of lcc-win are clearly
> > marked as extensions.
> >
> > I am sure many people in this group will start complaining about it and
> > propose you gcc or some variant. Just ignore them
> >
> > You can judge yourself by downloading it from
> >
> > http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~lcc-win32
> >
> > To download the introduction only, click on the "Tutorial" button.
> >
> > Jacob

>
>
> Shamelessly promoting your own stuff isn't exactly "advice".
>
>
> --
> Fascinating is a word I use for the unexpected.
> -- Spock, "The Squire of Gothos", stardate 2124.5



Right now i'm trying to install his lcc-win through wine. and i've downloaded the pdf already. It seems logical to promote it because both of the guysare interested in "using c" in

On Tuesday, March 6, 2012 2:09:19 AM UTC+6, Kleuske wrote:
> On Mon, 05 Mar 2012 15:27:43 +0100, jacob navia saw fit to publish the
> following:
>
> > Le 05/03/12 14:21, John Coleman a écrit :
> >>

> > You can use my compiler system and its associated text book: "An
> > introduction to C programming using lcc-win".
> >
> > It has several advantages:
> >
> > o It is free of charge (the compiler AND the introduction) o It starts
> > from the ground up, but covers sophisticated topics
> > like in-depth floating point analysis, memory allocation strategies
> > and many others.
> >
> > o It is geared to lcc-win but all extensions of lcc-win are clearly
> > marked as extensions.
> >
> > I am sure many people in this group will start complaining about it and
> > propose you gcc or some variant. Just ignore them
> >
> > You can judge yourself by downloading it from
> >
> > http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~lcc-win32
> >
> > To download the introduction only, click on the "Tutorial" button.
> >
> > Jacob

>
>
> Shamelessly promoting your own stuff isn't exactly "advice".
>
>
> --
> Fascinating is a word I use for the unexpected.
> -- Spock, "The Squire of Gothos", stardate 2124.5


the tools jacob mentioned seems built for using c in educational environment. original author of the post also has the same motive. so mentioning it seems quite logical. it may hurt hard core programmers who despise source level debuggers does hex arithmetic by hand.

although jacob's compiler has a commercial license which is not making it easy for me to make the point for jacob.
 
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Keith Thompson
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      03-07-2012
Fritz Wuehler <(E-Mail Removed)>
writes:
[...]
> The Wirth Pascal sucks because it's from Wirth, it's a teaching language,
> it's a one pass compiler, and it is unsuited for doing any serious work
> because of critical, built-in limitations. Kernighan (or was it Ritchie?)
> wrote a paper that nails the coffin shut on the original without much effort.


It was Kernighan: http://www.lysator.liu.se/c/bwk-on-pascal.html

[...]

--
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) (E-Mail Removed) <http://www.ghoti.net/~kst>
Will write code for food.
"We must do something. This is something. Therefore, we must do this."
-- Antony Jay and Jonathan Lynn, "Yes Minister"
 
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Malcolm McLean
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      03-07-2012
On Mar 5, 1:21*pm, John Coleman <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
> Next fall I will be running a special topics course with the title "Modern C Programming". The motivation for the course is that currently our CS students are exposed to C++, Java and a smattering of other languages (e.g. Lisp in an elective AI course) but no C per se. While in principle they learn some C naturally in the course of learning C++ they really don't learn all that much about things like pointers, malloc, and the safe handling of C-style strings and they definitely don't learn anything about C99. The proposed class is intended to give a serious introduction to C to students who have a working knowledge of either C++ or Java. This will allow me to blow through the basic syntax of expressions, loops, etc. in a couple of weeks and to spend the bulk of the semester on aspects of C which are different from Java and even C++.
>

I wrote a book called Basic Algorithms. It's in ANSI C. It;s not a C
primer, it's the book to read after ypu've worked through the C
primer. It might be what you're looking for. It's available
electroncially or in printed form.

--
Basic Algorithms - C programming from the ground up.
Avialable at http://www.malcolmmclean.site11.oom/www

 
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Jorgen Grahn
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      03-07-2012
On Mon, 2012-03-05, Hans Vlems wrote:
> On 5 mrt, 14:21, John Coleman <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>> Greetings,
>>
>> I teach math and computer science (though mostly math) at a small liberal ...

....
> If you want datastructures that have variable length, well use linked
> lists of structures.


Yes, as long as he shows the drawbacks of that and the shortcomings of
C in that area. (It's not as if the students won't notice; they have
experience with other languages.)

I'm mostly a C++ person, and in my current C project at work, the
worst aspect related to the language is all those malloced linked
lists. In C++ I would have chosen to use a std::vector<T> for
seriously better performance and reliability.

/Jorgen

--
// Jorgen Grahn <grahn@ Oo o. . .
\X/ snipabacken.se> O o .
 
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JohnF
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      03-08-2012
Jorgen Grahn <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> I'm mostly a C++ person, and in my current C project at work, the
> worst aspect related to the language is all those malloced linked
> lists. In C++ I would have chosen to use a std::vector<T> for
> seriously better performance and reliability.
> /Jorgen


I'm mostly a C person, and I agree you have a point.
Whenever I have a nontrivial data structure, let's
call it struct bigmess, it's always accompanied by
"methods" struct bigmess *new_bigmess(), and
int delete_bigmess(), that I write myself and that
do all the ugly mallocing and freeing necessary,
hiding all that housekeeping from the rest of the
application. Lots of useful C++ ideas can be
incorporated into C design (but I don't want to
get into the naive argument, "then why use C?").
--
John Forkosh ( mailto: (E-Mail Removed) where j=john and f=forkosh )
 
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Fritz Wuehler
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      03-08-2012
JohnF <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> Jorgen Grahn <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> > I'm mostly a C++ person, and in my current C project at work, the
> > worst aspect related to the language is all those malloced linked
> > lists. In C++ I would have chosen to use a std::vector<T> for
> > seriously better performance and reliability.
> > /Jorgen

>
> I'm mostly a C person, and I agree you have a point.
> Whenever I have a nontrivial data structure, let's
> call it struct bigmess, it's always accompanied by
> "methods" struct bigmess *new_bigmess(), and
> int delete_bigmess(), that I write myself and that
> do all the ugly mallocing and freeing necessary,
> hiding all that housekeeping from the rest of the
> application. Lots of useful C++ ideas can be
> incorporated into C design (but I don't want to
> get into the naive argument, "then why use C?").


We do that (and more) in assembler and have been doing those things since
way before there ever was a language called C++. Those ideas aren't from
C++...

 
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