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The real Ruby vs. Python.

 
 
Alexander Kellett
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      10-27-2004
On Thu, Oct 28, 2004 at 12:07:10AM +0900, trans. (T. Onoma) wrote:
> Are there downsides to this approach for Windows users?


cygwin is huge has an awful interface and
has severe problems with having multiple
cygwin1.dll's on the same system.

native compiles are by far my preference.
windows far from a single platform is *FAR*
more fragmented that linux will ever be.

how many ruby windows sub-platforms exist
now in total? four or is it five now? how
can anyone be expected to help when all of
them suck in there own little way? (e.g,
1-click doesn't have a standard package
thats in base ruby - curses)

Alex (who can't wait any longer to get his ibook and
remove both windows *and* linux at long last)


 
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Justin Rudd
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      10-27-2004
> you make the point excellently.
> noone takes on the job, and therefore..
> yeah. noone takes on the job.


I've tried a bit. I've got MySQL, PostgreSQL, and SQLite/Ruby
compiled for Windows. The PostgreSQL I haven't released because I
haven't tested it thoroughly. Although I'll probably release the
PostgreSQL one and let the community test it for me

My next project is OpenSSL so that I can use the Ruby SSH project.
But that is going to be awhile (I'm in the middle of moving from
Arizona to Washington).

The thing I've noticed is that the extension library code (the C code)
usually has dependencies on things that are not defined in Windows.
That is what takes the most time to get around. But the good news is
that it is a small minority of projects that have this problem.

--
Justin Rudd
http://seagecko.org/thoughts/


 
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Justin Rudd
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      10-27-2004
> Are there downsides to this approach for Windows users?

Licensing? If you are interested in just writing programs to use
internally or for personal use, probably no problems. But if you want
to resell your app, I'm not sure how the Cygwin license applies to
your code. Maybe it doesn't affect your code, but the ruby
interpreter that you would have to ship depends on the Cygwin DLL.
And to redistribute that, you have to make your source code available
(the way I read the license). Now is that the source code of the
interpreter or your programs running in the interpreter? It was gray
enough to make me steer clear of it.

--
Justin Rudd
http://seagecko.org/thoughts/


 
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David Ross
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      10-27-2004
Alexander Kellett wrote:

>On Wed, Oct 27, 2004 at 11:51:33PM +0900, Matt Mower wrote:
>
>
>>As a windows user I feel I should chip in here. I don't think I'm
>>feeling as unloved as the OP and I can live with a little unix
>>centricity but I wouldn't argue with Ruby becoming more Win-friendly.
>>I think the one-click installer is a great step in that direction but
>>I guess there are others.
>>
>>

>
>the main problem is that even while i was on
>windows i still had no clue how to help out,
>build packages etc. i certainly don't have a
>spare copy of vs.net or anything lying around
>here so i'd be able to do, well, exactly nothing.
>
>Alex
>
>
>
>

You can use mingw32. Help out you blasted lypanov. I told earlier you
its up to us, not end users.

David Ross
--
Hazzle free packages for Ruby?
RPA is available from http://www.rubyarchive.org/



 
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Curt Hibbs
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      10-27-2004
David Ross wrote:
> Binary releases are sometimes a problem, most of us are unix users,
> there are some windows users.


I am a big proponent of being cross-platform *and* making things as easy as
possible for end users to install and use. So, this is not intended to start
any kind of competition or flame-war, mostly I'm just curious...

When I see the statement "most of us are unix users, there are some windows
users" it makes me wonder whether or not this is really true. I'm involved
in two major cross-platform Ruby projects: FreeRIDE and wxRuby. In both
cases the windows downloads are higher than all the other platforms
combined.

It would be interesting if there was a more reliable way to gauge Ruby's use
on various platforms, but I don't know how that could be done.

Curt



 
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Jan Krüger
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      10-27-2004
trans. (T. Onoma) wrote:
> On Wednesday 27 October 2004 10:48 am, Howard Lewis Ship wrote:
> | I tried using the basic Ruby for windows package and got a few
> | mysterious errors ("readline.dll not found" when running irb).
> |
> | I backed that out and used Cygwin to install ruby. Now it runs perfectly.
> |
> | I was able to install RubyGems and start exploring that as well. It
> | didn't work with the "native" Ruby, but is completely seamless (to my
> | cursory examination) when using Ruby under Cygwin.
> |
> | Cygwin, by explantion, is a POSIX layer on top of Windows. It adds
> | aptget/rpm type functionality ... you download a small installer and
> | it downloads package descriptions for all the (Li|U)nixy stuff. It
> | handles downloading, installing, versioning, dependencies.
> |
> | http://www.cygwin.com/
>
>
> Are there downsides to this approach for Windows users?


Cygwin adds a something like a gnu/linux/posix layer between the
application and Windows, therefore not all "features" of Windows are
easily accessible and sometimes performance suffers. From a
Windows-user point of view sometimes unexpected effects may happen
because of the different semantics of the 2 worlds, eg: file system
permissions (Windows ACL's vs. POSIX bits within cygwin and the
translation between them).

cygwin itself is convinient to install and maintain.

Gruß
Jan


 
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Howard Lewis Ship
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      10-27-2004
My background is Java, which is typically "build on windows, deploy on
*nix". So, for me, just getting Ruby and RubyGems set up is enough;
I'll worry about deployment and licensing after I've actually written
some code.


On Thu, 28 Oct 2004 00:39:41 +0900, Jan Krger <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> trans. (T. Onoma) wrote:
>
>
> > On Wednesday 27 October 2004 10:48 am, Howard Lewis Ship wrote:
> > | I tried using the basic Ruby for windows package and got a few
> > | mysterious errors ("readline.dll not found" when running irb).
> > |
> > | I backed that out and used Cygwin to install ruby. Now it runs perfectly.
> > |
> > | I was able to install RubyGems and start exploring that as well. It
> > | didn't work with the "native" Ruby, but is completely seamless (to my
> > | cursory examination) when using Ruby under Cygwin.
> > |
> > | Cygwin, by explantion, is a POSIX layer on top of Windows. It adds
> > | aptget/rpm type functionality ... you download a small installer and
> > | it downloads package descriptions for all the (Li|U)nixy stuff. It
> > | handles downloading, installing, versioning, dependencies.
> > |
> > | http://www.cygwin.com/
> >
> >
> > Are there downsides to this approach for Windows users?

>
> Cygwin adds a something like a gnu/linux/posix layer between the
> application and Windows, therefore not all "features" of Windows are
> easily accessible and sometimes performance suffers. From a
> Windows-user point of view sometimes unexpected effects may happen
> because of the different semantics of the 2 worlds, eg: file system
> permissions (Windows ACL's vs. POSIX bits within cygwin and the
> translation between them).
>
> cygwin itself is convinient to install and maintain.
>
> Gru
> Jan
>
>



--
Howard M. Lewis Ship
Independent J2EE / Open-Source Java Consultant
Creator, Jakarta Tapestry
Creator, Jakarta HiveMind
http://howardlewisship.com



 
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Matt Mower
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      10-27-2004
Hi David,

On Thu, 28 Oct 2004 00:03:14 +0900, David Ross <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> Would you be willing to help me package binaries for RPA? I can help
> you re-learn if needed.
>


If you can put up with teaching me I would be happy to contribute some
of my spare time to this effort. Contact me in #ruby-lang.

Regards,

Matt


 
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David Ross
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      10-27-2004
Curt Hibbs wrote:

>David Ross wrote:
>
>
>>Binary releases are sometimes a problem, most of us are unix users,
>>there are some windows users.
>>
>>

>
>I am a big proponent of being cross-platform *and* making things as easy as
>possible for end users to install and use. So, this is not intended to start
>any kind of competition or flame-war, mostly I'm just curious...
>
>When I see the statement "most of us are unix users, there are some windows
>users" it makes me wonder whether or not this is really true. I'm involved
>in two major cross-platform Ruby projects: FreeRIDE and wxRuby. In both
>cases the windows downloads are higher than all the other platforms
>combined.
>
>It would be interesting if there was a more reliable way to gauge Ruby's use
>on various platforms, but I don't know how that could be done.
>
>Curt
>
>
>
>
>

I don't have anything against windows, but now I will get a team
together and have a group of people build binaries for windows users,
now it consists of lypanov and me. Soon we shall have a binary
revolution. To the Ruby Republic!

David Ross
--
Hazzle free packages for Ruby?
RPA is available from http://www.rubyarchive.org/



 
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David Ross
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      10-27-2004
Its Me wrote:

>"Abe Vionas_MailingList" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote
>
>
>
>>What it comes down to is what it's coming down to for
>>me... platform maturity.
>>
>>

>
>This bites me quite often as well, though I have not given up. There are
>likely hordes of unwashed masses like me, not entirely adept at
>source-patch-recompile-rebuild, who never even get started with Ruby because
>of the kinds of issues Abe describes.
>
>Their loss or Ruby's? Unfortunately, probably both.
>
>I feel gems is one of the keys to getting past this. Gems can make my local
>(Windows) Ruby install feel like
> - a single plug-in system
> - pulling together 'requires'
> - incorporating documentation from a single starting point
> - including compatible versions and dependencies
>
>It would be great if gems was part of the standard Ruby distribution, if RPA
>could use gems as its underlying package manager (reducing confusion for
>newBs), and if RPA could then also take on the role of Release Manager for
>Ruby itself.
>
>Some misc thoughts:
>
>- Could gems ALSO cover binaries AND binary/library dependencies?
>
>- Could the gems RDOCs have links to some gems-aligned community
>documentation site, as someone else proposed here recently?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

RPA and RubyGems have different aspects in implementation, so it would
not be compatible/easy. Now that I have a RPA QA team for windows, we
should have binaries put together soon. Good support for software.

David Ross
--
Hazzle free packages for Ruby?
RPA is available from http://www.rubyarchive.org/



 
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