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separating ruby-talk from comp.lang.ruby?

 
 
David Alan Black
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      05-25-2004
Hi --

Given that the gateway between ruby-talk and comp.lang.ruby is still
not working consistently, I'm wondering whether it's time to turn off
the gateway entirely and separate the two groups. It seems to me that
partial mirroring is worse than no mirroring.

Dennis (the maintainer) has tried to analyze and fix the problem, but
it appears to be downstream from his system somewhere. I guess it's
possible to investigate further, but at this point it may be pretty
hard, and meanwhile the unofficial split between the list and the
newsgroup continues to grow. I think it might be better to make it
official.

I don't know exactly how such a decision would be made, but I figured
the first step would be to see what people think of such a move (not
the idea of mirroring per se, but the idea of turning off mirroring in
light of the fact that it doesn't work). So.... ?


David

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Simon Strandgaard
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      05-25-2004
David Alan Black <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
[snip]
> I don't know exactly how such a decision would be made, but I figured
> the first step would be to see what people think of such a move (not
> the idea of mirroring per se, but the idea of turning off mirroring in
> light of the fact that it doesn't work). So.... ?


I used the newsgroup, but it was a terrible mess, replies wasn't mirrored
correct.. etc. In paticular posts from you didn't show up on the newsgroup.
Some time ago I switched to instead using the mailing list, and its much
better.

I wonder how google does it?

If the news2mail cannot work in all cases, then don't.
I don't like the inconsistency introduced by partially working systems.

A consequence would be that the Ruby socierty are divided in two parts.

--
Simon Strandgaard


 
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Robert Klemme
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      05-25-2004

"Simon Strandgaard" <(E-Mail Removed)> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:(E-Mail Removed).. .
> David Alan Black <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> [snip]
> > I don't know exactly how such a decision would be made, but I figured
> > the first step would be to see what people think of such a move (not
> > the idea of mirroring per se, but the idea of turning off mirroring in
> > light of the fact that it doesn't work). So.... ?


I agree that it's a nuisance. Maybe switching off the gateway is the best
we can do, but...

An alternative that comes to mind would be to automatically put something
into the header to let people know from which side the post originated to
make them aware that replies are more likely to originate on one or the
other side. I'm aware that this won't fix anything and it won't prevent
anybody loosing thread answers, but might be a useful hint.

Personally I could very well live with switching the mailing list off, but
then people have different preferences and I don't really expect the
mailing list to disappear.

> I used the newsgroup, but it was a terrible mess, replies wasn't

mirrored
> correct.. etc. In paticular posts from you didn't show up on the

newsgroup.
> Some time ago I switched to instead using the mailing list, and its much
> better.
>
> I wonder how google does it?
>
> If the news2mail cannot work in all cases, then don't.
> I don't like the inconsistency introduced by partially working systems.


Me, too.

> A consequence would be that the Ruby socierty are divided in two parts.


That is exactly the major issue that keeps me from agreeing
unconditionally to the split suggestion. OTOH there is already news,
mailing list and IRC. I'd certainly regret losing the input of those
people on the other side. *sigh*

Kind regards

robert


PS: David, thanks for bringing this up again and trying to find a
solution.

 
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Carlos
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      05-25-2004
[David Alan Black <(E-Mail Removed)>, 2004-05-25 13.23 CEST]
> Hi --
>
> Given that the gateway between ruby-talk and comp.lang.ruby is still
> not working consistently, I'm wondering whether it's time to turn off
> the gateway entirely and separate the two groups. It seems to me that
> partial mirroring is worse than no mirroring.
>
> Dennis (the maintainer) has tried to analyze and fix the problem, but
> it appears to be downstream from his system somewhere. I guess it's
> possible to investigate further, but at this point it may be pretty
> hard, and meanwhile the unofficial split between the list and the
> newsgroup continues to grow. I think it might be better to make it
> official.
>
> I don't know exactly how such a decision would be made, but I figured
> the first step would be to see what people think of such a move (not
> the idea of mirroring per se, but the idea of turning off mirroring in
> light of the fact that it doesn't work). So.... ?


The solution is to repair the mirror, not to give up.



 
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Raphael Bauduin
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      05-25-2004
David Alan Black wrote:
> Hi --
>
> Given that the gateway between ruby-talk and comp.lang.ruby is still
> not working consistently, I'm wondering whether it's time to turn off
> the gateway entirely and separate the two groups. It seems to me that
> partial mirroring is worse than no mirroring.
>
> Dennis (the maintainer) has tried to analyze and fix the problem, but
> it appears to be downstream from his system somewhere. I guess it's
> possible to investigate further, but at this point it may be pretty
> hard, and meanwhile the unofficial split between the list and the
> newsgroup continues to grow. I think it might be better to make it
> official.
>
> I don't know exactly how such a decision would be made, but I figured
> the first step would be to see what people think of such a move (not
> the idea of mirroring per se, but the idea of turning off mirroring in
> light of the fact that it doesn't work). So.... ?
>
>
> David
>


I would be more of the opinion to fix the problem. Is there a precise description of the problem
and of what has been tried to solve it? (Maybe it was posted on the ml and didn't make it to c.l.r?

I would find it bad to separate both. I'm reading the newsgroup, and find it annoying to miss some posts,
but I would vote for trying to solve the problem rather than scratch the link between both.

So, rather than just voice my opinion, should I contact Dennis (how?) to propose my help? How can I help?

Raph
 
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David Alan Black
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      05-25-2004
Hi --

Simon Strandgaard <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:

> David Alan Black <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> [snip]
> > I don't know exactly how such a decision would be made, but I figured
> > the first step would be to see what people think of such a move (not
> > the idea of mirroring per se, but the idea of turning off mirroring in
> > light of the fact that it doesn't work). So.... ?

>
> I used the newsgroup, but it was a terrible mess, replies wasn't mirrored
> correct.. etc. In paticular posts from you didn't show up on the newsgroup.
> Some time ago I switched to instead using the mailing list, and its much
> better.


If your posts get through to the newsgroup. For me it doesn't work.
I have to read the mailing list (to make sure I see everything), and
then fire up a newsreader to actually reply to anything (unless I'm
replying to something that never made it to the newsgroup...).

> I wonder how google does it?


It doesn't -- I mean, many of the ruby-talk posts never make it to
Google. That's one way I became aware of the problem.


David

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David Alan Black
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      05-25-2004
Carlos <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:

> [David Alan Black <(E-Mail Removed)>, 2004-05-25 13.23 CEST]
> > Hi --
> >
> > Given that the gateway between ruby-talk and comp.lang.ruby is still
> > not working consistently, I'm wondering whether it's time to turn off
> > the gateway entirely and separate the two groups. It seems to me that
> > partial mirroring is worse than no mirroring.
> >
> > Dennis (the maintainer) has tried to analyze and fix the problem, but
> > it appears to be downstream from his system somewhere. I guess it's
> > possible to investigate further, but at this point it may be pretty
> > hard, and meanwhile the unofficial split between the list and the
> > newsgroup continues to grow. I think it might be better to make it
> > official.
> >
> > I don't know exactly how such a decision would be made, but I figured
> > the first step would be to see what people think of such a move (not
> > the idea of mirroring per se, but the idea of turning off mirroring in
> > light of the fact that it doesn't work). So.... ?

>
> The solution is to repair the mirror, not to give up.


Ummm, OK. Any suggestions?


David

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David A. Black
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David Alan Black
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      05-25-2004
Hi --

"Robert Klemme" <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:

> Personally I could very well live with switching the mailing list
> off, but then people have different preferences and I don't really
> expect the mailing list to disappear.


It wouldn't be a matter of the list disappearing, just having the list
be separate from the newsgroup. For the record, I actually really
like(d) the mirroring. My first choice would be a working mirror, but
I don't see how to bring that about (though I'd be glad to be proven
wrong), and we're piling up months and months of inaccurate archives.


David

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Simon Strandgaard
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      05-25-2004
David Alan Black <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> Simon Strandgaard <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:
> > I wonder how google does it?

>
> It doesn't -- I mean, many of the ruby-talk posts never make it to
> Google. That's one way I became aware of the problem.


I had the impression Google did correct mirroring.. but I have
never verified it.

Is anybody aware of other services which does perfect mirroring (except NSA)?

--
Simon Strandgaard


 
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David Alan Black
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      05-25-2004
Hi --

Simon Strandgaard <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:

> David Alan Black <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> > Simon Strandgaard <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:
> > > I wonder how google does it?

> >
> > It doesn't -- I mean, many of the ruby-talk posts never make it to
> > Google. That's one way I became aware of the problem.

>
> I had the impression Google did correct mirroring.. but I have
> never verified it.


No, the missing messages never seem to make it to any NNTP server or
archive anywhere. This has been confirmed on Google, my server,
Guy Decoux's server, and various others.

> Is anybody aware of other services which does perfect mirroring (except NSA)?


I don't think any service ever sees these messages


David

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