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Python 25 times as popular as Ruby !?

 
 
Dan Doel
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      02-02-2004
Phil Tomson wrote:

>So Ruby awareness will just grow on it's own without any effort from us?
>It'll just happen? I don't think so.
>
>

Ruby awareness has already been growing without any specific advertising
plans, as far as I know.

>I don't think anyone is contacting big players and proposing that Ruby be
>used for things it's not suited for, and they shouldn't.
>But what about proposing Ruby for things that it _is_ good for?
>
>

Apologies, I was taking a jab at a language I used to like a whole lot,
before I learned Ruby. Java had lots of advertising and big corporate
muscle behind it, which is partially why it's as big as it is today.

>No, but why not visit other forums and make intelligent comments about
>Ruby (backing them up with facts about the language). I think there are
>many opportunities to do this in an appropriate way. Nobody's going to
>pay much attention to a post on a forum that says "You should use Ruby
>because it rox!", but if you suggest why Ruby makes sense for the given
>application space it will be received positively.
>
>
>It all depends on how the evangelizing is done. I would submit that we
>_do_ need Ruby evangelists, but they need to evangelize 'nicely' and
>intelligently. I know that a few years back there was an article going
>around about how language evangelism is just terrible bad and must be
>avoided at all costs, but I wonder if it caused us to go too far in the
>other direction. "I'm not going to even mention Ruby as an option because
>I don't want to be seen as an evangelist". The more people hear about
>Ruby, the more likely it is that they'll try it.
>
>We've all seen plenty of examples of superior commercial products that
>died due to poor marketing.
>
>So please _do_ write articles, post messages to other forums and even to
>Slashdot. If we aim to be invisible, we will be.
>
>


I'm not saying we shouldn't talk about Ruby to other people. I think if
it's appropriate, you should bring it up. I myself have brought up Ruby
in forums I've posted to, like comp.lang.functional, and probably even
Slashdot.

I suppose when I said we dont' need evangelists, I really meant that we
don't need zealots. When there's a story about Java and someone goes in
and posts a random comment about how Python is better than Java, all it
does it make people angry. Feel free to evangelize as long as it's
appropriate, just don't go overboard and make people hate Ruby for its
evangelists/zealots.

Ruby will gain mass through people writing code and, of course, through
light evangelism. But I'm sure many of us already do that, so it's more
of a matter of time.

- Dan


 
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Avi Bryant
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      02-02-2004
Lothar Scholz <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message news:<(E-Mail Removed) >...
>
> Smalltalk is also dying or better becaming less and less attrictive.
> Same as lisp where only Franz Lisp is still competitive in some areas.
> In fact in commerical areas Smalltalk is much more dead then Eiffel.


Those of us (and there are quite a few) who use Smalltalk for
commercial development daily find such statements very amusing. As a
simple data point, there are currently at least five commercial
Smalltalk vendors (IBM, Cincom, Object Arts, Gemstone, Exept). That's
an awful lot of companies to be selling a dead language - I wonder how
they support all those development teams if nobody is buying their
product?

Ruby is not going to die just because it's not #1 most popular
scripting language, any more than Apple is going to die because they
only have a couple of % of the PC market. Network effects matter, but
Ruby is well beyond the critical mass it needs to survive. In fact,
Ruby is now too popular for my personal taste - I prefer the energy in
slightly smaller communities than Ruby's has become. The price of
success...

Avi
 
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Peter Hickman
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      02-02-2004
Lothar Scholz wrote:

>It's simple. The evolution depends on the size of the active
>community. I don't mean students who pick it up for a course, or
>people writting there first script, but people using it in a
>professional (commerical) environment.
>
>

This is quite clearly a lie. At one point the number of people using
python could be counted on the fingers of one hand. But that community
built up over the years (and it was years, belive me) to achive it's
current state. By your logic such an unpopular language, as it was then,
shouldn't have made any inroads into the commercial environment.

That fact that it is 25 times more popular than ruby, by your own metic,
proves that being unpopular has not held it back. The fact that it is
used in commercial environments from such a starting point make a
mockery of your assertion.

>You can't deny that there is a correlation between this and the
>quality of the libraries (maybe not the core) and found/fixed bugs.
>

Maybe I should go over to comp.lang.python and see if you have written
'Perl is 25 times as popular as Python'. Which of course you should
write as Perl has vastly more libraries of high quality software than
python.

Other than trolling just what was the point of you message?



 
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Ged
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      02-02-2004
"Gavin Sinclair" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message news:<64119.203.185.214.34.1075684452.squirrel@web mail.imagineis.com>...
> [Charles Comstock:]
>
> I fully agree on all counts. I'll just mention, though, that RDoc
> actually encourages introductory/usage/example documentation, *so long as
> the developer wants to write it*. For example:
>


An idea I was wondering was if it might be possible to link unit tests
and RDoc.

It would work like this:

- The developer creates unit tests for their class, starting with the
simplest usages and then testing each facet of the code with unit
tests.

- There may be some extra, optional, notation for expressing how a
test would appear in the documentation. For example, a test may be
marked to be included in the main body of the documentatation, while
others are linked in a separate document. You could also categorise
the unit tests, and add other meta language.

- RDoc then processes these unit tests, formatting and indexing them,
and includes them with the final documentation.

I think this approach could make it easier for class writers to
produce extensive examples whithout much additional work.
 
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Martin DeMello
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      02-02-2004
Lothar Scholz <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
> Whats about cooperation instead of competition in the ruby world ?
> The raa-installer vs. ruby-gems is one of the places where energy is
> spend that could be used better. I also see lots of libraries in
> competition to each other but not in competition to some python/perl
> libraries, simply because they are to weak to be a competitor.


I have no problem with several projects exploring the same ecological
niche. What I do find mildly depressing is the number of ruby cookbook
projects out there, in various stages of development. (I even wrote to a
couple to see if they needed help, but never heard back from one, and
was told the other was on hiatus at the moment). Surely we should be
able to finish such a well-defined project within a month or two, with a
concerted community push.

Which brings up an interesting tangent - is there any ruby software that
would help coordinate such an effort?

martin
 
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Tim Hunter
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      02-02-2004
On Mon, 02 Feb 2004 14:00:37 +0900, Dan Doel wrote:
>
> What can the Ruby community really do except continue to write Ruby code?
> RubyForge says it hosts 152 projects.


I have 2 suggestions:

1. Host your Ruby projects on RubyForge. That gives folks 1 place to look
for Ruby code, and supports the efforts of those who support Ruby.

2. Buy Ruby books. Hal, Dave, etc. have mentioned that publishers are not
interested in bringing out new Ruby books when the current ones aren't
selling. I'm told that if you want to know where a man's heart is, look in
his checkbook. If we want Ruby to grow, spending a little money won't
hurt.

 
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Peter Hickman
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      02-02-2004
Martin DeMello wrote:

>Lothar Scholz <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>
>>Whats about cooperation instead of competition in the ruby world ?
>>The raa-installer vs. ruby-gems is one of the places where energy is
>>spend that could be used better. I also see lots of libraries in
>>competition to each other but not in competition to some python/perl
>>libraries, simply because they are to weak to be a competitor.
>>
>>

>
>I have no problem with several projects exploring the same ecological
>niche. What I do find mildly depressing is the number of ruby cookbook
>projects out there, in various stages of development. (I even wrote to a
>couple to see if they needed help, but never heard back from one, and
>was told the other was on hiatus at the moment). Surely we should be
>able to finish such a well-defined project within a month or two, with a
>concerted community push.
>
>Which brings up an interesting tangent - is there any ruby software that
>would help coordinate such an effort?
>
>martin
>
>
>
>

The TCL crew have a wiki in which various snippets and document can be
found. Quite a lot of the queries in the c.l.t news group get pointed to
wiki.tcl.tk/WhatEver which can be a very interesting source of information.

What is the problem with the cookbook sites? What is the stumbling
block, the effort to organise it, the lack of submissions, hosting?

Maybe if we knew why they failed then we could address that rather than
start yet another project.



 
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Gavin Sinclair
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      02-02-2004
On Monday, February 2, 2004, 11:29:49 PM, Martin wrote:

> Lothar Scholz <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>
>> Whats about cooperation instead of competition in the ruby world ?
>> The raa-installer vs. ruby-gems is one of the places where energy is
>> spend that could be used better. I also see lots of libraries in
>> competition to each other but not in competition to some python/perl
>> libraries, simply because they are to weak to be a competitor.


> I have no problem with several projects exploring the same ecological
> niche. What I do find mildly depressing is the number of ruby cookbook
> projects out there, in various stages of development. (I even wrote to a
> couple to see if they needed help, but never heard back from one, and
> was told the other was on hiatus at the moment). Surely we should be
> able to finish such a well-defined project within a month or two, with a
> concerted community push.


> Which brings up an interesting tangent - is there any ruby software that
> would help coordinate such an effort?


I started one such effort with submissions from the Sydney group,
which was never really advertised. It was based on PLEAC (which is
based on the Perl cookbook). I didn't like the PLEAC "code only"
approach, so thought another effort was justified (besides, all code
is sharable).

My effort has been dead for ages. I'd love to donate it to a good
home. Left alone, one day I would probably make a RubyForge project
out of it, but I'm waaaay too busy on other Ruby stuff to think about
that atm.

It's not a community push that would finish it; it's devotion from a
few core people and proofreading from a few more.

Cheers,
Gavin

http://www.soyabean.com.au/gavin/rub...tml/index.html




 
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gabriele renzi
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      02-02-2004
il Sun, 01 Feb 2004 16:34:46 -0600, Charles Comstock
<(E-Mail Removed)> ha scritto::


>
>I certainly would probably rather do it in C# then Java. It's
>interesting in the 2.0 spec for C# they are adding yield symantics,
>anonymous method blocks and generics.



don't forget the ability to make the definition of a class in two
different places

 
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Tom Copeland
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      02-02-2004
On Mon, 2004-02-02 at 00:33, Dan Doel wrote:
> I suppose when I said we dont' need evangelists, I really meant that we
> don't need zealots. When there's a story about Java and someone goes in
> and posts a random comment about how Python is better than Java, all it
> does it make people angry. Feel free to evangelize as long as it's
> appropriate, just don't go overboard and make people hate Ruby for its
> evangelists/zealots.


Right on; seems like there's are opportunities for these things. If
there's a Slashdot article on Jabber, post a note about Jabber4R. If
there's an article on ImageMagick, post about RMagick, etc.

Yours,

Tom


 
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