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Re: OT: London Cops seem to have a $54K time problem

 
 
NM5K
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      01-19-2012
On 1/19/2012 2:35 PM, Savageduck wrote:

>
> So "beats" are still there.
>
>


Yep, same here.. In fact, the 15E20 example I used before
is the beat for this neighborhood. Which if they are not in
a hurry and want to get fancy, they would say 15 Edward 20.. :/
But just because this is 15E20's beat does not automatically
mean that if I called the police, 15E20 would be the one that
showed up. It could well end up being any "20's beat" car, 15E21,
15E22, 15E24, etc..
Maybe all of them if it's a slow Wednesday.. :/
Just depends who's close and handy.
I'm in the Southwest patrol division, district 15, 20's beat.
http://houstoncrimemaps.com/beat/
http://www.houstontx.gov/police/pdfs/hpd_beat_map.pdf
 
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David Dyer-Bennet
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      01-19-2012
Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> writes:

> On 2012-01-19 13:14:20 -0800, Eric Stevens <(E-Mail Removed)> said:
>
>> On Thu, 19 Jan 2012 15:04:22 -0500, tony cooper
>> <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 19 Jan 2012 10:09:36 -0800, Savageduck
>>> <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2012-01-19 09:10:25 -0800, Whisky-dave <(E-Mail Removed)> said:
>>>>
>>>>> On Jan 19, 12:41*am, Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> On 2012-01-18 14:58:07 -0800, Pete A <(E-Mail Removed)>
>>>>> said:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 2012-01-18 21:34:52 +0000, Savageduck said:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You would think that it would be cheaper to issue each cop a Timex.
>>>>>>>> <
>>>>>>>> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...litan-police-c..
>>>>> .
>>>>>> ...and why pray tell would traceability to national and international
>>>>>> time standards be vital to a beat cop?
>>>
>>> The whole concept of the need for to-the-minute-time on a police
>>> report is ridiculous to me. What time is recorded? The time the unit
>>> arrives at the location? The time the patrol officers made to the
>>> door and knocked? The time they gained entrance to the part of the
>>> scene where the incident was taking place or had taken place?
>>>
>>> That's a span of several minutes. "We arrived on the scene at about
>>> 4:20 PM" would be realistically acceptable. The problem is, lawyers
>>> don't accept "realistically acceptable". They would use discrepancies
>>> of minutes to challenge the veracity of the reporting officer.

>>
>> In one famous murder case in NZ the alibi of the accused hung (in
>> part) on a three minute difference in the time he was reported as
>> being in two different places. The two times were measured by two
>> different watches. Discrepancies of minutes were certainly used to
>> challenge the evidence.

>
> ...but that was the accused and his alibi, not times related to police
> response and reports.


The police report often establishes the base of the timeline that
everything else goes on, though. Although with estimates of time of
death, we're not going to be finding a minute or two significant.
--
David Dyer-Bennet, http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/(E-Mail Removed); http://dd-b.net/
Snapshots: http://dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/data/
Photos: http://dd-b.net/photography/gallery/
Dragaera: http://dragaera.info
 
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tony cooper
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      01-20-2012
On Thu, 19 Jan 2012 12:35:19 -0800, Savageduck
<savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:

>>
>> Changing subjects slightly...."beat cop"? How many cities still have
>> "beat cops"? I think the only beat cops left are those taking on the
>> role of "Officer Krupke" in staged musicals.

>
>Yup, "Beat cop" conjures up an image of the baton in hand stroller
>talking to shop keepers and kids, but times have changed and terms live
>on.
>
>Today in California designated patrol routes are termed "Beats". CHP
>officers can be, and are assigned specific "beats". All with
>significant overlap.
>For example for the CHP, the Hwy101 corridor between Templeton
>California and Salinas is divided into three major "beats" with four
>additional patrol routes assigned to CHP Templeton & CHP King City.


I was delighted to see "Southland" return to TV this week. Whether or
not you like cop shows, the show is well worth watching just for the
opening credits and the vintage photographs used in the opening
credits. The theme music is great, too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HykxlZ6HT38

Another show, "Making It In America" (HBO series), takes place in
Manhattan but also has fantastic photographs in the opening credits.
The theme music - "I Need A Dollar" - is an ear worm. For those of us
that do and like "street", the photos resonate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0hor1YHXeU

--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
 
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Whisky-dave
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      01-20-2012
On Jan 19, 6:09*pm, Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
> On 2012-01-19 09:10:25 -0800, Whisky-dave <(E-Mail Removed)> said:
>
>
> > On Jan 19, 12:41*am, Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com>
> > wrote:
> >> On 2012-01-18 14:58:07 -0800, Pete A <(E-Mail Removed)>

> > said:

>
> >>> On 2012-01-18 21:34:52 +0000, Savageduck said:

>
> >>>> You would think that it would be cheaper to issue each cop a Timex.
> >>>> <
> >>>>http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...litan-police-c...

> > .

>
> >> The

>
> >>> speaking clock has traceability to national and international time
> >>> standards, a Timex does not.

>
> >> ...and why pray tell would traceability to national and international
> >> time standards be vital to a beat cop?
> >> A timex, Casio or almost any other inexpensive watch would provide
> >> sufficient degree of accuracy for any police officer. A cop needing to
> >> use the "speaking clock" seems pretty clueless to me.

>
> > Unless it's to cover themselves.

>
> All they have to do to cover themselves is their job.


Whatever that means.

>
> > In court a policeman might be asked at what time did you see the
> > accused
> > do x y z, *and how do you know what time *it was.
> > "I looked at my phone2 is all very well but when at the time or the
> > incident
> > or after, dialing the 123 (if that;s still the code) can be very
> > useful to anyone
> > not just because of the time but they fact you have a record of what
> > you did at that time.
> > My friend HTC android 2.3 is always about 5 mins fast.
> > And using GPS someone might even be able to fuind oput where you
> > actually were at that toime rather than
> > were yuo say you were.

>
> All irrelevant once the incident is fully investigated and reports are
> written. Context is everything.


But what time will be written on those reports.

>
> > Of course what should really happen is that a number should be used
> > that can tell you then time and record
> > where you are as far as useful to the police, they should have their
> > own number for such things.

>
> ...and in my experience they do.


My experience isn;t from within the force but from the outside.



> >> I have yet to see a police crime scene, or incident report where the
> >> exact time was given. The report would usually read, "At approximately
> >> xxx hours I......".

>
> > And I wonder how many times those given times have been wrong.
> > You only have to be out by a few miniutes to miss a flight or train.

>
> ...but that is a flight or train, and if you are going to cut things
> that close you have other issues to deal with.


If you've got police officers that can't tell the time there's a
problem.
When I was on juryb serice one of the cases that ws thrown out was
partly because of the wrong
time, no of the 5 police involved new what time they raided the falt
of who went up the stairs first.
The judge was most amuse when 3 of the 5 police said they were the
first up a flight of stairs.
If one officer says they broke the door down at 10:00am and he was the
first in and another at 9:50
and she was the first in who's lying about the 14 yearold dropping a
bag of drugs down the back of the sofa.
And why wasn;t that bag produced as evidence the judge asked,
me parapharing obviously) it wasn;t just me that workled it out for
myself.

yesterday when I was answering a sort of accusation I had to inform
that "accuser"
that the instidetn didnt;l take place on teh 4th of Jan but on the
5th.
So there's a 24 hour differnce proved by a time date stamped email.
in a few months or weeks a day here or there might not matter.




>
>
>
> >> Usually the only time an exact time is given, is when it is reported on
> >> a speeding ticket/citation and an electronic speed measuring device
> >> such as RADAR or LADAR is used. Then the device is going to show the
> >> time the measurement was made on its display and that is recorded on
> >> the citation. The cop doesn't even have to look at his watch.

>
> > Which is good isn't it. I'd like to be able to trust all cops, but if
> > 5 or 10mins
> > can make the differnce between being at the scene of a crime and not
> > being their
> > then the report that the4 police use could be very important.

>
> There are less expensive methods of policing the police.


I would hope so. If that is the case why isn;t it used.
We;ve had quite a trun around of high ranking police,
maybe it;'s incompetence maybe there's soemthing more.


>
> > *But I am suspicious/curious as to why it wass used as often as it
> > was.

>
> That was my issue.


Yes so there should be a reason, hopefully it'll become clear.

>
>
>
> >> Also if
> >> the protocol requires a vehicle registration check either by radio, or
> >> patrol car computer, the time that query is made is recorded at both
> >> ends of the communication without the cop needing to do anything.

>
> > exacly anothyer device has recorded the time other than the 'brain' of
> > the cop.

>
> Yup.
>
>
>
> >> Having a watch reading the correct time, within a minute or two on my
> >> wrist worked for me for 25 years. Not once have I had to dial a service
> >> to have the time whispered in my ear.

>
> > So you've never been accused of lying about the time an incident took
> > place.

>
> You might say I have been an expert witness, and while I have been
> subject to cross examination many times, keeping thing simple and
> factual is the best method of dealing with accusatory innuendo.


I would agree if I was only so lucky


>
> >> In a worst case scenario where the cop's watch has stopped running, or
> >> is obviously showing a questionable time, a radio check to a dispatcher
> >> should suffice. Then with today's ubiquitous cell phone, and I am sure
> >> 99.9% of London Metropolitan police carry one, a glance at the display
> >> will give them a report of the correct time without having to dial the
> >> "speaking clock" service.

>
> > I;d agree but what of proof....

>
> See below.
>
>
>
> >> ...or perhaps these cops are so retarded they like hearing the computer
> >> generated voice. I am guessing it is a pleasant, come-hither female
> >> voice saying, "When you hear the tone it will be 12:46".

>
> > But the cops off on an extended lunch break and didnt; get to the
> > scene of teh crime
> > until 13:00, but he said he was there at 12:46 as he phjimed TIM.
> > which was dialed
> > at 13:00 not 12:46.

>
> Witnesses, even cops can be shaky on exact time, and that is why few
> first responders in my experience, are going to report anything other
> than approximate times.
> In the scenario you have proposed stating that he/she arrived at the
> scene at approximately 12:46 or 13:00, or even 13:05 would both suffice
> for an initial report.


But who was first on teh scene that can be important.
Luckly now we have CCTV which may be used.

> The chronology of events on scene *can be pinned
> down later by referring to communications center logs, which would be
> time stamped.


I would hope so, but hope and faith aren;t really the same.

> So there is nothing wrong with initially using approximately 12:46 as
> an arrival time.


Of course not.

> once he/she have advised the communications
> center/dispatcher that they are on scene, that communication would
> establish the official time on scene which can be added to a later
> supplemental report. (more on this below)
> Testimony could well go go something along these lines, "I arrived on
> scene at approximately 12:46 hours. Once the scene was secured dispatch
> informed me that my exact time on scene was 13:00 hours."


Which would then differer from the written statement.
Why not suply cops with watches that keep time rather than expect
them
to use their own.
I have two radio controlled clocks in my lab about 130ft apart in two
seperate labs
this is so I can point to them and tell the studetns to pack up at
5pm.
So why do the clocks show a time differnce of 4 mins ?
We're in east London pretty close to GMT and the time clock signal is
in rugby
but doens; tell me which clock is right.
Condiosring it takes the student until 5:15 to pack up it's no big
deal.



>
> In the USA we have this thing called the "Ten-Code" which is employed
> by 99.99% of law enforcement agencies, together with "plain talk" radio
> communication for those not familiar with the full "Ten-Code".


yes even here we've heard of those.

> Calling with his/her call sign, for the last 6 years of by career mine
> was "Charlie 2 Alpha" and saying as it would have been in my case,
> "Charlie 2 Alpha, 10-97". This would have advised dispatch and any
> other responders that I was on scene and would have effectively time
> stamped that arrival without me even having to look at my watch.


Do you ever set your watch fast most people seem to and they don;t
all
set it to the same time either. It's been quite a few years since i
Heard the
expression if you want to know the time ask a policeman.

>
> All the time befuddled officer would have to do to get a time check is
> to call "10-35", this is the "Ten-Code" for a "time check", on his
> radio and there will be a response, usually from dispatch, but
> sometimes with an element of "raised eyebrow" kidding from peers.


I would expect a similar sytem here, but why have a code 10:35
why not just asked for the time ?

>
> --
> Regards,
>
> Savageduck


 
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Whisky-dave
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      01-20-2012
On Jan 19, 5:29*pm, Alan Browne <(E-Mail Removed)>
wrote:
> On 2012-01-19 12:10 , Whisky-dave wrote:
> <>
>
> *> I;d agree but what of proof....
>
> <>
>
> Sworn testimony is accepted in common and civil law courts and for such
> a thing as time, it would be generally accepted with little contest.
>
> If a police officer gives testimony that he recorded something at 14:32,
> and yes, here it is jotted down in his notes, then it is usually
> accepted as true testimony.


Most people set their personal clocks and watches fast, mobile phones
are crap at keeping the time unless
they are linked to GPS time services, most aren't.

http://www.time.com/time/business/ar...915588,00.html



> *If challenged by the defense he can claim
> he called the time service that morning to set his watch, or used his
> GPS or cell phone to ensure accuracy.


That claim might require proof that he actually set the time, and then
whether it was set correctly.


>
> No jury or judge will really challenge that as not accurate time.
>
> There is no need to have an audit trail of time or GPS.


If you don;t know what time you have arrived at the scene of a crime
it can cause problems.
Being 5 mins out could me suspect A was 5mins away from teh scene when
the incident happend.
What if Suspect A says thier watch showed 10:15am and the plocemans
says it was 1010am.
Or have I been watching too much sherlock


>
> Though, I would bet that most cops will be using GPS recorders on their
> person at some point to show where/when they were.


I would hope so, but I don;t know they sure seem to have to carry a
lot of kits.

> *More reliable, less
> fallible, recordable. *Some cops would find this inconvenient, of course.


oh yes, I've been on jury service twice

What surpried me most was I thought the speaking clock was free

http://www.telephonesuk.co.uk/speaking_clock.htm

Seems it's 10p per minute 15p max from a BT line, so the 31p
refered to must be from mobiles, if the police are using police mobile
phones
why do the police supply officers with free mobile phone.
If they are the officers own phones then how come the police force
is re-embursing officers the cost of using this service, unless they
have been told ot use it.




>
> (And such recorders would need to be certified against data tampering).
>
> --
> "We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty."
> Douglas Adams - (Could have been a GPS engineer).


 
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Ray Fischer
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      01-22-2012
Mxsmanic <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>Just give policemen watches that synchronize with atomic clocks. They are
>inexpensive and accurate to within one second in thirty million years. An
>example of these watches would be the Casio Waveceptor series.


Would that be cheaper? The Metropolitan Police Service employs about
32 thousand sworn officers. If a watch like that costs $30 then
you're going to spend a million dollars just outfitting every officer.
And you still have to spend more every year to replace lost, missing,
and worn-out watches.

--
Ray Fischer | None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free.
(E-Mail Removed) | Goethe

 
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tony cooper
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      01-22-2012
On Sun, 22 Jan 2012 21:46:09 +0100, Mxsmanic <(E-Mail Removed)>
wrote:

>Just give policemen watches that synchronize with atomic clocks. They are
>inexpensive and accurate to within one second in thirty million years. An
>example of these watches would be the Casio Waveceptor series.
>
>In fact, you can sync all sorts of things to atomic clocks. All of my watches
>and clocks are synchronized in this way, and the computers are synced by NTP,
>which is at least equally accurate. It's easy to get the correct time if you
>really want the correct time.


The thinking here continues to puzzle me. As I understand it, what
the officers were verifying was the correct time to use in a written
report.

I don't care if they call the Speaking Clock, use an atomic clock, or
have a direct connection to the Royal Observatory in Greenwich. There
is nothing about *knowing* the correct time that proves that the
correct time is recorded on the report. Even if the call is recorded
or logged, that only records or logs the time the call is made. The
incident that is the subject of the report could have occurred at a
much earlier time.

The officers may have been making an effort to be accurate, but the
accuracy would not be proof of anything.


--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
 
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Ray Fischer
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      01-22-2012
Mxsmanic <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>Just give policemen watches that synchronize with atomic clocks. They are
>inexpensive and accurate to within one second in thirty million years. An
>example of these watches would be the Casio Waveceptor series.
>
>In fact, you can sync all sorts of things to atomic clocks. All of my watches
>and clocks are synchronized in this way, and the computers are synced by NTP,
>which is at least equally accurate. It's easy to get the correct time if you
>really want the correct time.


One detail: So-called "atomic watches" synchronize to a radio signal
broadcast by WWV in Ft. Collins Colorado. Expecting the London police
force to synchronize their clock to a radio station in the US might be
a bit unreasonable.

--
Ray Fischer | None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free.
(E-Mail Removed) | Goethe

 
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David J Taylor
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      01-23-2012
> One detail: So-called "atomic watches" synchronize to a radio signal
> broadcast by WWV in Ft. Collins Colorado. Expecting the London police
> force to synchronize their clock to a radio station in the US might be
> a bit unreasonable.
>
> --
> Ray Fischer


In Europe and Japan there are similar services, for example MSF covers the
UK:

http://www.npl.co.uk/science-technol...io-time-signal

David

 
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Ray Fischer
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      01-23-2012
Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
> (E-Mail Removed) (Ray Fischer) said:
>> Mxsmanic <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>> Just give policemen watches that synchronize with atomic clocks. They are
>>> inexpensive and accurate to within one second in thirty million years. An
>>> example of these watches would be the Casio Waveceptor series.
>>>
>>> In fact, you can sync all sorts of things to atomic clocks. All of my watches
>>> and clocks are synchronized in this way, and the computers are synced by NTP,
>>> which is at least equally accurate. It's easy to get the correct time if you
>>> really want the correct time.

>>
>> One detail: So-called "atomic watches" synchronize to a radio signal
>> broadcast by WWV in Ft. Collins Colorado. Expecting the London police
>> force to synchronize their clock to a radio station in the US might be
>> a bit unreasonable.

>
>This is a practical US, or even UK solution, you will note the UTC time
>in the upper right.
><
>http://www.usno.navy.mil/USNO/time/m...o-master-clock


That's not the issue.

The issue is whether a radio signal from a station in Colorado can be
received by a tiny wristwatch radio in London, some 4,700 miles distant.

And, of course, whether the police in London want to be dependent on
the whims of a US Congress.

--
Ray Fischer | None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free.
(E-Mail Removed) | Goethe

 
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