Velocity Reviews - Computer Hardware Reviews

Velocity Reviews > Newsgroups > Computing > Digital Photography > Re: This guy mattered more than Jobs the Toymaker

Reply
Thread Tools

Re: This guy mattered more than Jobs the Toymaker

 
 
otter
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      10-17-2011
On Oct 15, 7:57*pm, Rich <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> The underpinning of our computer world rides on this fellow's and his
> colleague's efforts, not Apple adult toys.
>
> http://www.cnn.com/2011/10/14/tech/i...hie-obit-bell-
> labs/index.html


As much as I respect Dennis Ritchie and invention of the C programming
language, it was really just one thing, and not without warts.

Steve Jobs and Woz brought us the first useful personal computer, the
Apple II. And then they stole some ideas and gave us the Mac, which
led to Windows, and the windowing guis in the unix/linux world. Then
add on the "toys" at Apple, and a few other things to get a true idea
of the scope of Steve Jobs' accomplishments.

No reason to put down either man, or even compare them.
 
Reply With Quote
 
 
 
 
Mike Benveniste
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      10-17-2011
On 10/16/2011 10:11 PM, otter wrote:

> As much as I respect Dennis Ritchie and invention of the C programming
> language, it was really just one thing, and not without warts.


He is also justifiably called a co-creator of Unix, and those two
technologies set the stage for the vast majority of computing today.

Under Mr. Jobs leadership, on the other hand, Apple produced and
brought to market _four_ product that created permanent cultural
change. None of those products were "wart free" either.

To worker bees like myself, trying to judge which giant was shook
the earth more is an exercise in futility.

--
Mike Benveniste -- http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/(E-Mail Removed) (Clarification Required)
You don't have to sort of enhance reality. There is nothing
stranger than truth. -- Annie Leibovitz
 
Reply With Quote
 
 
 
 
GMAN
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      10-17-2011
In article <(E-Mail Removed)>, otter <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>On Oct 15, 7:57=A0pm, Rich <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>> The underpinning of our computer world rides on this fellow's and his
>> colleague's efforts, not Apple adult toys.
>>
>> http://www.cnn.com/2011/10/14/tech/i...hie-obit-bell-
>> labs/index.html

>
>As much as I respect Dennis Ritchie and invention of the C programming
>language, it was really just one thing, and not without warts.
>
>Steve Jobs and Woz brought us the first useful personal computer, the
>Apple II. And then they stole some ideas and gave us the Mac, which
>led to Windows, and the windowing guis in the unix/linux world. Then
>add on the "toys" at Apple, and a few other things to get a true idea
>of the scope of Steve Jobs' accomplishments.
>
>No reason to put down either man, or even compare them.

You are seriously disrepecting what Atari and Commodre brought to the table.
When the mac came out , it was black and white, and a year later the Atari ST
and commodore amiga blew out of the water what apple and the current PC world
at the time had to offer. Add a few apple roms to a discovery cart on your ST
and you were running mac apps fater that a real mac at the time
 
Reply With Quote
 
GMAN
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      10-17-2011
In article <(E-Mail Removed)>, Mike Benveniste <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>On 10/16/2011 10:11 PM, otter wrote:
>
>> As much as I respect Dennis Ritchie and invention of the C programming
>> language, it was really just one thing, and not without warts.

>
>He is also justifiably called a co-creator of Unix, and those two
>technologies set the stage for the vast majority of computing today.
>
>Under Mr. Jobs leadership, on the other hand, Apple produced and
>brought to market _four_ product that created permanent cultural
>change. None of those products were "wart free" either.
>


What? the MP3 player? already out long before the iPod , Pad computing? I had
a HP laptop/PAD PC years before the ipad came out etc... etc...


The only cultural change i see is the millions of duchebag teens and adults
who feel the constant need to update their stupid facebook pages with stuff
like "eating lunch now" , "Taking **** now" etc.....


>To worker bees like myself, trying to judge which giant was shook
>the earth more is an exercise in futility.
>

 
Reply With Quote
 
Mike Benveniste
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      10-17-2011
On 10/17/2011 1:42 PM, GMAN wrote:

> What? the MP3 player? already out long before the iPod , Pad computing? I had
> a HP laptop/PAD PC years before the ipad came out etc... etc...


Building the technology is one thing, but history shows that "if
you build it they will come" is a lousy business strategy. What Mr.
Jobs excelled at was bringing technology to the market in a way
which took it out of the realm of the technophiles/geeks/nerds/etc
and into mainstream culture. That's a very different skill than
Mr. Ritchie.

There were several microcomputers marketed before the Apple ][,
including some based on 8-bit Motorola chips. Today, they are
historical footnotes.

Computers with GUI's existed before the Macintosh, including Apple's
own Lisa. You can assert the technical superiority of Atari and
Commodore's offerings as much as you want, but they never made
it into mainstream use. The same is true of various 8088 and 8086
machines that were superior to the IBM PC. Footnotes all.

Laser printers existed before the Apple LaserWriter. I don't count
this one as one of the 4, but if you remember what it was like
dealing with fonts with the early HP LaserJet's, you might well
put it on the list. Without the LaserWriter, desktop publishing
would have taken a far different path.

As you point out, MP3 players existed before the iPod. The combination
of the iPod, iTunes, and the iTunes store legitimized digitally
downloaded music and brought it into the mainstream.

Finally, smartphones existed before the iPhone, and today Android
phones outsell iPhone's rather handily. But if you take a look at
other smart phones before and after the iPhone, you can see how
the iPhone was a game changer. If you need a reminder of that, compare
the amount of press given the iPhone 4s's release as compared to any
other mobile related technology. There's an app for that.

I think the jury is still out on the iPad. After the iPhone, it
was clear we'd see a spectrum of device sizes, even though UMPC's
had failed miserably. On the plus side, none of the other tablets
so far have made a dent in iPad sales or market share. On the
minus side, the iPad is currently too expensive and is suboptimal
as a book reader.

--
Mike Benveniste -- (Clarification Required)
Its name is Public opinion. It is held in reverence. It settles
everything. Some think it is the voice of God. -- Mark Twain
 
Reply With Quote
 
Charles
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      10-17-2011

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_QuickTake

Staying on topic .....
 
Reply With Quote
 
Whisky-dave
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      10-18-2011
On Oct 17, 6:42*pm, (E-Mail Removed) (GMAN) wrote:
> In article <(E-Mail Removed)>, Mike Benveniste <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> >On 10/16/2011 10:11 PM, otter wrote:

>
> >> As much as I respect Dennis Ritchie and invention of the C programming
> >> language, it was really just one thing, and not without warts.

>
> >He is also justifiably called a co-creator of Unix, and those two
> >technologies set the stage for the vast majority of computing today.

>
> >Under Mr. Jobs leadership, on the other hand, Apple produced and
> >brought to market _four_ product that created permanent cultural
> >change. *None of those products were "wart free" either.

>
> What? the MP3 player? already out long before the iPod ,


So why weren;t people buying them then ?.

> Pad computing? *I had
> a HP laptop/PAD PC years before the ipad came out etc... etc...


Yes and clive sinclair had a portable TV in the 1970s, so what.

>
> The only cultural change i see is the millions of duchebag teens and adults
> who feel the constant need to update their stupid facebook pages with stuff
> like "eating lunch now" , "Taking **** now" * *etc.....


Yep and most of those seem to use PC's, that's not a fault of the
person that invented the first computer.

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >To worker bees like myself, trying to judge which giant was shook
> >the earth more is an exercise in futility.


 
Reply With Quote
 
Whisky-dave
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      10-18-2011
On Oct 17, 9:12*pm, "Neil Harrington" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> otter wrote:
> > On Oct 15, 7:57 pm, Rich <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> >> The underpinning of our computer world rides on this fellow's and his
> >> colleague's efforts, not Apple adult toys.

>
> >>http://www.cnn.com/2011/10/14/tech/i...hie-obit-bell-
> >> labs/index.html

>
> > As much as I respect Dennis Ritchie and invention of the C programming
> > language, it was really just one thing, and not without warts.

>
> > Steve Jobs and Woz brought us the first useful personal computer, the
> > Apple II. *And then they stole some ideas and gave us the Mac, which

>
> I don't think the Woz had much (if anything) to do with the Mac, though
> apparently the Apple II was almost entirely his creation.
>
> The Mac, as I recall, was originally intended to be just an economy version
> of the $10,000 Lisa -- which was a flop.
>
> > led to Windows, and the windowing guis in the unix/linux world. *Then

>
> I think the first version of Windows appeared at about the same time as the
> Mac,


About a year after the first mac.

though that Windows was unworkable for practical purposes and pretty
> much remained so for a few years, until 3.0.


Yep.

>
> But at least Windows had color from the beginning, unlike the early Macs
> with their funky little blue monochrome screens.

#
I was usiong colour on my BBC micro in 1982. 4 years before windows.
Those macs had monochrone screens not blue.
I could print in colour fromm a Macplus.
The first PCs we had were green and black or orange and black displays
no real colour.



>
>
> > add on the "toys" at Apple, and a few other things to get a true idea
> > of the scope of Steve Jobs' accomplishments.

>
> > No reason to put down either man, or even compare them.


 
Reply With Quote
 
Whisky-dave
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      10-18-2011
On Oct 18, 2:22*am, "Neil Harrington" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> Savageduck wrote:
> > On 2011-10-17 13:12:45 -0700, "Neil Harrington" <(E-Mail Removed)> said:

>
> >> otter wrote:
> >>> On Oct 15, 7:57 pm, Rich <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> >>>> The underpinning of our computer world rides on this fellow's and
> >>>> his colleague's efforts, not Apple adult toys.

>
> >>>>http://www.cnn.com/2011/10/14/tech/i...hie-obit-bell-
> >>>> labs/index.html

>
> >>> As much as I respect Dennis Ritchie and invention of the C
> >>> programming language, it was really just one thing, and not without
> >>> warts. Steve Jobs and Woz brought us the first useful personal computer,
> >>> the Apple II. *And then they stole some ideas and gave us the Mac,
> >>> which

>
> >> I don't think the Woz had much (if anything) to do with the Mac,
> >> though apparently the Apple II was almost entirely his creation.

>
> > Correct. However Woz returned to Apple's development team in 1983
> > after recovering from his aircrash injuries and completing his degree
> > at UC Berkeley, and had a hand in a fair part of "de-Lisa-ing" the
> > Lisa.

>
> Ah. That I didn't know.
>
>
>
> >> The Mac, as I recall, was originally intended to be just an economy
> >> version of the $10,000 Lisa -- which was a flop.

>
> > Correct again. It became obvious the Lisa was not going to succeed
> > against the DOS machines and Jobs had divorced himself from refining
> > it further, but still needed to make an impact within the corporate
> > hierarchy. So he had the Lisa concept simplified and invented "Steve
> > Jobs" the promotional guru (his one true invention)

>
> Heh. I always thought Jobs was overrated (or over-self-promoted). His main
> contributions to the Apple II, as I recall, were fanlessness (because he
> thought the sound of a fan would make people think it too machine-like,


yes he wanted people to use the computer not just programmers.
I remmeber being able to drag a window to where I wanted it on a Mac
rather than having to program the co-ordinates of where I wanted a
window to be on a Xerox system.


> which might make them afraid of it) and the funky 52-key keyboard with no
> provision for caps.
>
> Both these ideas reflected Jobs's concern that above all, the computer must
> be non-threatening to ordinary people.


Yep, a goodmove and quite original at the time.

> And both only served to limit the
> computer in some way.


everything has limits.

>*Most other Apple II owners I knew promptly bought a
> Kensington System Saver fan to put on it, since they didn't trust convection
> cooling to do the job.


I think I only saw two of these where I worked, I don;t remmebr any
PCs of that era othe rthan ther PET
which was commador

> The limited keyboard was more of a problem,
> obviously.


I don;t remmber that being much of a problem as most programming
languages
only used uppercase, and these computers wee far to expensive for
secarataries
to type up memos on. I remmebr asembly language beingn written using
them.

>There was some sort of hardware modification that would enable
> capitalizing, obviously a necessity when word processing software appeared
> for it.


yes but the cost of these machines made it beetr to buy secaratries
typewriters,
or rather we had tehm on hire (typewriters)

> But these were just dumb mistakes on Jobs's part.


or a Necessity to keep costs and complexitiy down.

>My own Apple was
> the IIe which had a much more complete keyboard.


Mine was a BBC model A in 1982, it could still manage 8 colours
something none of our PC type computers could do.

>
> I've read that when Woz and the other guy (whose name I've long forgotten)
> were rushing to get the Apple II prototype ready for a demonstration,
> Wozniak asked Jobs to design the (then essential) tape recorder port. Jobs
> simply replied, "That's analog. I don't do analog,."


yes that sytem was pretty bad, my BBC used a similar system but was
much beetr as it loaded in blocks
so all you had to do was rewind the tape a little.

>
> > leading to the
> > "1984" ad.
> > Remember the target of that ad was IBM, not MS.

>
> >>> led to Windows, and the windowing guis in the unix/linux world. Then

>
> >> I think the first version of Windows appeared at about the same time
> >> as the Mac, though that Windows was unworkable for practical
> >> purposes and pretty much remained so for a few years, until 3.0.

>
> > Both Jobs/Wozniak and the weasel Gates lifted the GUI concept from
> > Xerox PARC.

>
> And the mouse too, isn't that right? Or was that from somewhere else?


Well it's on wiki...
Independently, Douglas Engelbart at the Stanford Research Institute
invented the first mouse prototype in 1963,[4] with the assistance of
his colleague Bill English.

Just a few weeks before Engelbart released his demo in 1968, a mouse
had already been developed and published by the German company
Telefunken. Unlike Engelbart's mouse, the Telefunken model had a ball,
as it can be seen in most later models until today.

The second marketed integrated mouse shipped as a part of a computer
and intended for personal computer navigation came with the Xerox 8010
Star Information System in 1981. However, the mouse remained
relatively obscure until the appearance of the Apple Macintosh, which
included an updated version of the original Lisa Mouse.



> >> But at least Windows had color from the beginning, unlike the early
> >> Macs with their funky little blue monochrome screens.

>
> >>> add on the "toys" at Apple, and a few other things to get a true
> >>> idea of the scope of Steve Jobs' accomplishments.

>
> >>> No reason to put down either man, or even compare them.

>
> > Agreed.

>
> > Also, many folks forget that Edison's practice after his initial
> > successes, was to throw concepts at his Menlo Park team of researchers
> > for them to come up with the products and "inventions" for which he
> > held patents. That practice certainly makes the comparison between
> > Edison and Jobs valid.

>
> Interesting.


 
Reply With Quote
 
Bruce
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      10-18-2011
"Neil Harrington" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>I don't know what a BBC micro is.



Wikipedia is your friend:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBC_Micro

 
Reply With Quote
 
 
 
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Re: This guy mattered more than Jobs the Toymaker Whisky-dave Digital Photography 23 12-22-2011 04:18 PM
Re: This guy mattered more than Jobs the Toymaker RichA Digital Photography 7 12-22-2011 08:35 AM
pgp trash troll delete Guy Macon guymacon Guy Macon guymacon Guy Macon rlm@interlog.com.ca Perl Misc 1 08-06-2007 04:59 PM
JOBs............JOBs............JOBs hardikh2000 Python 0 08-16-2005 03:55 AM
GUY MACON HAS NO COLLEGE DEGREE (Guy Macon, pseudo-engineer Guy Macon) Guy Macon (Guy Macon) Digital Photography 0 02-04-2005 05:52 AM



Advertisments