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MS_POSITIONING="flowlayout"

 
 
Kelly
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      11-12-2004
Hi all -

I'm just wondering about something. I have been using gridlayout for my
project, but was recently told why flowlayout would be best (for my project
anyway). So, I went into the HTML and changed my MS_POSITIONING to
flowlayout, but the auto sizes, locations, and positions are still there for
my controls. I've saved it, closed and re-opened it, etc and none of this
has worked.

Know what I mean?

The body tag still says
<body bgColor="powderblue" MS_POSITIONING="flowlayout">

so I'm not sure why the sizes, positions, locations, etc are still showing
up in my HTML.

Any ideas?

TIA!
-Kelly


 
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Scott M.
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      11-12-2004
Items that you have already placed on the form will not be affected by the
change of this setting. You must change their positions for them to conform
to the new setting. Any new controls you add will conform to the new
setting.

"Kelly" <> wrote in message
news:et%...
> Hi all -
>
> I'm just wondering about something. I have been using gridlayout for my
> project, but was recently told why flowlayout would be best (for my
> project
> anyway). So, I went into the HTML and changed my MS_POSITIONING to
> flowlayout, but the auto sizes, locations, and positions are still there
> for
> my controls. I've saved it, closed and re-opened it, etc and none of this
> has worked.
>
> Know what I mean?
>
> The body tag still says
> <body bgColor="powderblue" MS_POSITIONING="flowlayout">
>
> so I'm not sure why the sizes, positions, locations, etc are still showing
> up in my HTML.
>
> Any ideas?
>
> TIA!
> -Kelly
>
>



 
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Kelly
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      11-12-2004
Thanks, Scott!

PS. I changed my code to what you suggested (re: datagrids) yesterday and it
works great!

-Kelly

"Scott M." <s-> wrote in message
news:...
> Items that you have already placed on the form will not be affected by the
> change of this setting. You must change their positions for them to

conform
> to the new setting. Any new controls you add will conform to the new
> setting.
>
> "Kelly" <> wrote in message
> news:et%...
> > Hi all -
> >
> > I'm just wondering about something. I have been using gridlayout for my
> > project, but was recently told why flowlayout would be best (for my
> > project
> > anyway). So, I went into the HTML and changed my MS_POSITIONING to
> > flowlayout, but the auto sizes, locations, and positions are still there
> > for
> > my controls. I've saved it, closed and re-opened it, etc and none of

this
> > has worked.
> >
> > Know what I mean?
> >
> > The body tag still says
> > <body bgColor="powderblue" MS_POSITIONING="flowlayout">
> >
> > so I'm not sure why the sizes, positions, locations, etc are still

showing
> > up in my HTML.
> >
> > Any ideas?
> >
> > TIA!
> > -Kelly
> >
> >

>
>



 
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Alvin Bruney [MVP]
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      11-12-2004
>but was recently told why flowlayout would be best (for my project
> anyway)

Rubbish! Who told you so?
(that's actually what i was thinking, to put it politely)

Many uninformed developers rooted in ASP and HTML programming champion
flowmode while disparaging designmode. I'm sure you aren't one of them by
the way.

--
Regards,
Alvin Bruney
[ASP.NET MVP http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/default.aspx]
Got tidbits? Get it here... http://tinyurl.com/27cok
"Kelly" <> wrote in message
news:et%...
> Hi all -
>
> I'm just wondering about something. I have been using gridlayout for my
> project, but was recently told why flowlayout would be best (for my
> project
> anyway). So, I went into the HTML and changed my MS_POSITIONING to
> flowlayout, but the auto sizes, locations, and positions are still there
> for
> my controls. I've saved it, closed and re-opened it, etc and none of this
> has worked.
>
> Know what I mean?
>
> The body tag still says
> <body bgColor="powderblue" MS_POSITIONING="flowlayout">
>
> so I'm not sure why the sizes, positions, locations, etc are still showing
> up in my HTML.
>
> Any ideas?
>
> TIA!
> -Kelly
>
>



 
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Scott M.
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      11-13-2004
We are talking about FlowLayout vs. GridLayout, not flowmode vs. designmode
(2 different sets of things).

GridLayout (IMO) is definitely NOT the way to build up a UI. GridLayout
simply uses CSS Level 2 to absolutely position elements on the page. Now
there are exceptions to every rule, but I have never advocated building the
whole UI with absolutely positioned elements since when developing for the
Internet, we don't know the resolution and monitor sizes of the client. Not
to mention that absolute positioning is more difficult to design the layout
of the page with since it requires knowing the exact pixel sizes of
everything on the page.

FlowLayout, by contrast allows us to simply drop a table of a certain width
on that page and work within that width boundary. Now, getting back to the
exception for every rule....If I have something I need to absolutely
position, I can still do it for that one control without switching the
entire page into GridLayout.



"Alvin Bruney [MVP]" <vapor at steaming post office> wrote in message
news:%...
> >but was recently told why flowlayout would be best (for my project
>> anyway)

> Rubbish! Who told you so?
> (that's actually what i was thinking, to put it politely)
>
> Many uninformed developers rooted in ASP and HTML programming champion
> flowmode while disparaging designmode. I'm sure you aren't one of them by
> the way.
>
> --
> Regards,
> Alvin Bruney
> [ASP.NET MVP http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/default.aspx]
> Got tidbits? Get it here... http://tinyurl.com/27cok
> "Kelly" <> wrote in message
> news:et%...
>> Hi all -
>>
>> I'm just wondering about something. I have been using gridlayout for my
>> project, but was recently told why flowlayout would be best (for my
>> project
>> anyway). So, I went into the HTML and changed my MS_POSITIONING to
>> flowlayout, but the auto sizes, locations, and positions are still there
>> for
>> my controls. I've saved it, closed and re-opened it, etc and none of this
>> has worked.
>>
>> Know what I mean?
>>
>> The body tag still says
>> <body bgColor="powderblue" MS_POSITIONING="flowlayout">
>>
>> so I'm not sure why the sizes, positions, locations, etc are still
>> showing
>> up in my HTML.
>>
>> Any ideas?
>>
>> TIA!
>> -Kelly
>>
>>

>
>



 
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Scott M.
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      11-13-2004
Oh, and by the way, I would consider myself an extremely well informed
developer with many many years of practical
experience.



"Alvin Bruney [MVP]" <vapor at steaming post office> wrote in message
news:%...
> >but was recently told why flowlayout would be best (for my project
>> anyway)

> Rubbish! Who told you so?
> (that's actually what i was thinking, to put it politely)
>
> Many uninformed developers rooted in ASP and HTML programming champion
> flowmode while disparaging designmode. I'm sure you aren't one of them by
> the way.
>
> --
> Regards,
> Alvin Bruney
> [ASP.NET MVP http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/default.aspx]
> Got tidbits? Get it here... http://tinyurl.com/27cok
> "Kelly" <> wrote in message
> news:et%...
>> Hi all -
>>
>> I'm just wondering about something. I have been using gridlayout for my
>> project, but was recently told why flowlayout would be best (for my
>> project
>> anyway). So, I went into the HTML and changed my MS_POSITIONING to
>> flowlayout, but the auto sizes, locations, and positions are still there
>> for
>> my controls. I've saved it, closed and re-opened it, etc and none of this
>> has worked.
>>
>> Know what I mean?
>>
>> The body tag still says
>> <body bgColor="powderblue" MS_POSITIONING="flowlayout">
>>
>> so I'm not sure why the sizes, positions, locations, etc are still
>> showing
>> up in my HTML.
>>
>> Any ideas?
>>
>> TIA!
>> -Kelly
>>
>>

>
>



 
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Scott Mitchell [MVP]
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      11-13-2004
I concur 100%. GridLayout is deceptively evil, and I wish Microsoft
hadn't made it the default in Visual Studio .NET 2002/2003. I teach
about six ASP.NET courses during the course of the year, and the number
one thing that developers coming from a WinForms background do is become
wed to GridLayout.

By the time they come to my class, some of the #1 questions are:

* Why does the control I put beneath my DataGrid become covered up by
my DataGrid when it has too many items?
* My users are complaining because they have to horizontally scroll,
how do I fix this?
* I have a user with an older browser version, and the page looks like
junk. What's wrong with ASP.NET, why won't it work for older browsers?

etc., etc.

Now, I believe once we have Longhorn with a significant marketshare, and
the Web moves from the current HTML markup to a richer, UI-focused
markup, then the GridLayout concept will work great, and be the de facto
way to create Web pages. But with the current technologies, GridLayout
causes more pain among new developers than not.

--

Scott Mitchell

http://www.4GuysFromRolla.com

* When you think ASP.NET, think 4GuysFromRolla.com!
 
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Alvin Bruney [MVP]
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      11-13-2004
> Oh, and by the way, I would consider myself an extremely well informed
> developer with many many years of practical
> experience.

I'm not, i will graduate this year and start looking for work in the real
world for the first time.

I was paying enough attention to catch your implication that experienced
developers use flow!

--
Regards,
Alvin Bruney
[ASP.NET MVP http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/default.aspx]
Got tidbits? Get it here... http://tinyurl.com/27cok
"Scott M." <s-> wrote in message
news:%23n3%23%.. .
> Oh, and by the way, I would consider myself an extremely well informed
> developer with many many years of practical
> experience.
>
>
>
> "Alvin Bruney [MVP]" <vapor at steaming post office> wrote in message
> news:%...
>> >but was recently told why flowlayout would be best (for my project
>>> anyway)

>> Rubbish! Who told you so?
>> (that's actually what i was thinking, to put it politely)
>>
>> Many uninformed developers rooted in ASP and HTML programming champion
>> flowmode while disparaging designmode. I'm sure you aren't one of them by
>> the way.
>>
>> --
>> Regards,
>> Alvin Bruney
>> [ASP.NET MVP http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/default.aspx]
>> Got tidbits? Get it here... http://tinyurl.com/27cok
>> "Kelly" <> wrote in message
>> news:et%...
>>> Hi all -
>>>
>>> I'm just wondering about something. I have been using gridlayout for my
>>> project, but was recently told why flowlayout would be best (for my
>>> project
>>> anyway). So, I went into the HTML and changed my MS_POSITIONING to
>>> flowlayout, but the auto sizes, locations, and positions are still there
>>> for
>>> my controls. I've saved it, closed and re-opened it, etc and none of
>>> this
>>> has worked.
>>>
>>> Know what I mean?
>>>
>>> The body tag still says
>>> <body bgColor="powderblue" MS_POSITIONING="flowlayout">
>>>
>>> so I'm not sure why the sizes, positions, locations, etc are still
>>> showing
>>> up in my HTML.
>>>
>>> Any ideas?
>>>
>>> TIA!
>>> -Kelly
>>>
>>>

>>
>>

>
>



 
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Alvin Bruney [MVP]
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      11-13-2004
I've spent countless hours arguing the EVILS of flow so i won't go over it
here - feel free to google for it.
At the end of the day, nobody has changed sides.And it is a bitter debate.
The default for whidbey is flow and i will be fighting tooth and nail to get
it back to grid - the way it should be.

>GridLayout is deceptively evil,

That's what i mean by disparaging remarks. It's an option in the IDE, learn
to use it properly.
If it didn't have a bona fide use, it would not be included - it wouldn't
even be the default in two released versions.
That by itself should be meaningful in and of itself.


* Why does the control I put beneath my DataGrid become covered up by
my DataGrid when it has too many items?
* My users are complaining because they have to horizontally scroll,
how do I fix this?
* I have a user with an older browser version, and the page looks like
junk. What's wrong with ASP.NET, why won't it work for older browsers?

All these concerns have extremely easy fixes that I trust you are imparting
as a responsible and objective teacher.
But you did hit the nail on the head. Windows programmers stick to grid,
HTML and ASP programmers stick to flow. And there are very little
backsliders.

My take is that the web has evolved from simple web submission forms to
complex applications that run in a browser - functionally equivalent to a
windows application in a browser.
For that type of programming, gridlayout is a must. For all other options,
use gridlayout (that's not a typo either).

--
Regards,
Alvin Bruney
[ASP.NET MVP http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/default.aspx]
Got tidbits? Get it here... http://tinyurl.com/27cok
"Scott M." <s-> wrote in message
news:%23n3%23%.. .
> Oh, and by the way, I would consider myself an extremely well informed
> developer with many many years of practical
> experience.
>
>
>
> "Alvin Bruney [MVP]" <vapor at steaming post office> wrote in message
> news:%...
>> >but was recently told why flowlayout would be best (for my project
>>> anyway)

>> Rubbish! Who told you so?
>> (that's actually what i was thinking, to put it politely)
>>
>> Many uninformed developers rooted in ASP and HTML programming champion
>> flowmode while disparaging designmode. I'm sure you aren't one of them by
>> the way.
>>
>> --
>> Regards,
>> Alvin Bruney
>> [ASP.NET MVP http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/default.aspx]
>> Got tidbits? Get it here... http://tinyurl.com/27cok
>> "Kelly" <> wrote in message
>> news:et%...
>>> Hi all -
>>>
>>> I'm just wondering about something. I have been using gridlayout for my
>>> project, but was recently told why flowlayout would be best (for my
>>> project
>>> anyway). So, I went into the HTML and changed my MS_POSITIONING to
>>> flowlayout, but the auto sizes, locations, and positions are still there
>>> for
>>> my controls. I've saved it, closed and re-opened it, etc and none of
>>> this
>>> has worked.
>>>
>>> Know what I mean?
>>>
>>> The body tag still says
>>> <body bgColor="powderblue" MS_POSITIONING="flowlayout">
>>>
>>> so I'm not sure why the sizes, positions, locations, etc are still
>>> showing
>>> up in my HTML.
>>>
>>> Any ideas?
>>>
>>> TIA!
>>> -Kelly
>>>
>>>

>>
>>

>
>



 
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Scott Mitchell [MVP]
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      11-13-2004
>>GridLayout is deceptively evil,
>
> That's what i mean by disparaging remarks. It's an option in the IDE, learn
> to use it properly.


Just because something exists as an option, doesn't mean it isn't a
feature that will cause more harm than good.

> If it didn't have a bona fide use, it would not be included - it wouldn't
> even be the default in two released versions.
> That by itself should be meaningful in and of itself.


Agreed, but there are things that cause more harm than good, regardless
of if they are options. For example, Option Explicit does not need to
be included in a VBScript/old school VB program, but should be, always,
and shouldn't have to be added to be included, agreed?

> * Why does the control I put beneath my DataGrid become covered up by
> my DataGrid when it has too many items?
> * My users are complaining because they have to horizontally scroll,
> how do I fix this?
> * I have a user with an older browser version, and the page looks like
> junk. What's wrong with ASP.NET, why won't it work for older browsers?
>
> All these concerns have extremely easy fixes that I trust you are imparting
> as a responsible and objective teacher.


Naturally. I show them the workaround, and then encourage them to
explore FlowLayout in more depth. With my students, I find that it's
ignorance that makes them hesitant to switch. They come from a non-Web
background, so they are not familiar with using <DIV>s, <table>s, or
other HTML elements to position content. This is all fine and good, but
the point is my experience of people who are proponents of Grid over
Flow are those who don't have a firm grasp on laying out a page without
absolute positioning. I believe in an earlier comment in this thread
you mentioned you had some good reasons for using Grid over Flow, I'd be
interested in hearing them.

> My take is that the web has evolved from simple web submission forms to
> complex applications that run in a browser - functionally equivalent to a
> windows application in a browser.


We're getting there, yes, but HTML is not going to be the markup to take
us there, XAML will. So I agree that GridLayout will be very important
in the future, but right now I find it to be substandard.

> For that type of programming, gridlayout is a must. For all other options,
> use gridlayout (that's not a typo either).


I take it you are developing your Web apps on an intranet, where the
browser is guaranteed? Do you still promote GridLayout when you know
you'll have visitors who, for example, might be coming from 2nd world
nations or universtities, where they might not be using the latest and
greatest browsers?


--

Scott Mitchell

http://www.4GuysFromRolla.com

* When you think ASP.NET, think 4GuysFromRolla.com!
 
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