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Re: an excellent read from the ACLU

 
 
tony cooper
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      12-13-2011
On Tue, 13 Dec 2011 13:18:55 +1100, "Trevor" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>
>"PeterN" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>news:4ee67a66$0$22982$(E-Mail Removed)-secrets.com...
>>> As smart people know, you can't con an honest man, it takes a gun or
>>> government to rob him instead
>>>

>>
>> Were they forced to buy?

>
>Governments do the buying with taxpayers money, taxpayers rarely have any
>say in it.


The government employees who do the buying are, themselves, taxpayers.
In fact, they are sharing the burden more than many since they are
employed - usually at rather good salaries - and paying income taxes,
property taxes, and taxes on purchases.

>>> Was there coercion?

>


--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
 
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Trevor
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      12-13-2011

"tony cooper" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news(E-Mail Removed)...
>>Governments do the buying with taxpayers money, taxpayers rarely have any
>>say in it.

>
> The government employees who do the buying are, themselves, taxpayers.
> In fact, they are sharing the burden more than many since they are
> employed - usually at rather good salaries


That's the problem, it's not their money they waste, and they usually have a
far better life style than many others.


>and paying income taxes, property taxes, and taxes on purchases.


Which is why they love flat taxes so much. The old days of progressive taxes
where those who could afford it actually paid more, are just about gone
unfortunately. The new paradigm is the richer you are, the better the
accountant you can afford, shelf companies you can set up, family trusts you
can utilise, off shore tax havens you can register, and the less tax you
actually pay. The tax burdon now falls almost entirely on the middle class
and poorest members of the community because they have no ability to escape
it.

Trevor.







 
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PeterN
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      12-13-2011
On 12/12/2011 9:18 PM, Trevor wrote:
> "PeterN"<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:4ee67a66$0$22982$(E-Mail Removed)-secrets.com...
>>> As smart people know, you can't con an honest man, it takes a gun or
>>> government to rob him instead
>>>

>>
>> Were they forced to buy?

>
> Governments do the buying with taxpayers money, taxpayers rarely have any
> say in it.
>
>> Was there coercion?

>
> Governments control the police force, armies, national guard, security
> agencies etc. How much more coercion do you need!


Here is the contest of my question/comment. Your Snipping clearly shows
intellectual dishonesty?



You said: "> It was the US banks that sold them truck loads of worthless
junk bonds though. Stupid of the Europeans to think US banks were
motivated by anything other than outright greed though, which of course
is what the Eurpopeans > were also doing when they bought them!
As smart people know, you can't con an honest man, it takes a gun or
government to rob him instead..."

that way the comment to which I asked my question. Your response to my
question was a meaningless rant

EOD.
>




--
Peter
 
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Pete Stavrakoglou
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      12-13-2011
"Trevor" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:jc6pnp$moj$(E-Mail Removed)...
>
> "tony cooper" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news(E-Mail Removed)...
>>>Governments do the buying with taxpayers money, taxpayers rarely have any
>>>say in it.

>>
>> The government employees who do the buying are, themselves, taxpayers.
>> In fact, they are sharing the burden more than many since they are
>> employed - usually at rather good salaries

>
> That's the problem, it's not their money they waste, and they usually have a
> far better life style than many others.
>
>
>>and paying income taxes, property taxes, and taxes on purchases.

>
> Which is why they love flat taxes so much. The old days of progressive taxes
> where those who could afford it actually paid more, are just about gone
> unfortunately. The new paradigm is the richer you are, the better the
> accountant you can afford, shelf companies you can set up, family trusts you
> can utilise, off shore tax havens you can register, and the less tax you
> actually pay. The tax burdon now falls almost entirely on the middle class and
> poorest members of the community because they have no ability to escape it.
>
> Trevor.


Your claim tha the burden falls on the middle class is wrong. 40% of all
federal income taxes are paid by the top 1%, the top 5% pay over 70% of all
federal income taxes, the top 10% pay over 80% of all federal income taxes.


 
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Pete Stavrakoglou
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      12-13-2011
"Trevor" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:jc6cab$rvn$(E-Mail Removed)...
>
> "Pete Stavrakoglou" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:jc4unk$koj$(E-Mail Removed)...
>>
>> Greece is in the state it's in because of government spending, overly
>> generous government benefits, lack of adequate tax collection,

>
> Dead right there, just as the US would be OK *IF* they actually collected
> taxes from the rich and big corporations.
> It's certainly not the poor where most of the money went in either country!
>
> Trevor.


Per my last post. The top 1% pay over 40% of all federal income taxes, the top
5% over 70% and te top 10% over 80%. You can take all of the money rich people
have and it would not put a dent in the deficit because our federal government
has an insatiable appetite to spend.


 
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J. Clarke
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      12-13-2011
In article <jc7krd$eke$(E-Mail Removed)>, http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/(E-Mail Removed) says...
>
> "Trevor" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:jc6cab$rvn$(E-Mail Removed)...
> >
> > "Pete Stavrakoglou" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> > news:jc4unk$koj$(E-Mail Removed)...
> >>
> >> Greece is in the state it's in because of government spending, overly
> >> generous government benefits, lack of adequate tax collection,

> >
> > Dead right there, just as the US would be OK *IF* they actually collected
> > taxes from the rich and big corporations.
> > It's certainly not the poor where most of the money went in either country!
> >
> > Trevor.

>
> Per my last post. The top 1% pay over 40% of all federal income taxes, the top
> 5% over 70% and te top 10% over 80%.


Source?

> You can take all of the money rich people
> have and it would not put a dent in the deficit because our federal government
> has an insatiable appetite to spend.



 
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tony cooper
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      12-13-2011
On Tue, 13 Dec 2011 17:02:09 +1100, "Trevor" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>
>"tony cooper" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>news(E-Mail Removed).. .
>>>Governments do the buying with taxpayers money, taxpayers rarely have any
>>>say in it.

>>
>> The government employees who do the buying are, themselves, taxpayers.
>> In fact, they are sharing the burden more than many since they are
>> employed - usually at rather good salaries

>
>That's the problem, it's not their money they waste, and they usually have a
>far better life style than many others.
>

I love the way you deflect where it is pointed out that you are in
error and plunge on from there.
>
>>and paying income taxes, property taxes, and taxes on purchases.

>
>Which is why they love flat taxes so much. The old days of progressive taxes
>where those who could afford it actually paid more, are just about gone
>unfortunately. The new paradigm is the richer you are, the better the
>accountant you can afford, shelf companies you can set up, family trusts you
>can utilise, off shore tax havens you can register, and the less tax you
>actually pay. The tax burdon now falls almost entirely on the middle class
>and poorest members of the community because they have no ability to escape
>it.


Where do you get the idea that government employees love the flat tax
approach?
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
 
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tony cooper
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      12-13-2011
On Tue, 13 Dec 2011 08:41:46 -0500, "Pete Stavrakoglou"
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>"Trevor" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>news:jc6pnp$moj$(E-Mail Removed)...
>>
>> "tony cooper" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>> news(E-Mail Removed)...
>>>>Governments do the buying with taxpayers money, taxpayers rarely have any
>>>>say in it.
>>>
>>> The government employees who do the buying are, themselves, taxpayers.
>>> In fact, they are sharing the burden more than many since they are
>>> employed - usually at rather good salaries

>>
>> That's the problem, it's not their money they waste, and they usually have a
>> far better life style than many others.
>>
>>
>>>and paying income taxes, property taxes, and taxes on purchases.

>>
>> Which is why they love flat taxes so much. The old days of progressive taxes
>> where those who could afford it actually paid more, are just about gone
>> unfortunately. The new paradigm is the richer you are, the better the
>> accountant you can afford, shelf companies you can set up, family trusts you
>> can utilise, off shore tax havens you can register, and the less tax you
>> actually pay. The tax burdon now falls almost entirely on the middle class and
>> poorest members of the community because they have no ability to escape it.
>>
>> Trevor.

>
>Your claim tha the burden falls on the middle class is wrong. 40% of all
>federal income taxes are paid by the top 1%, the top 5% pay over 70% of all
>federal income taxes, the top 10% pay over 80% of all federal income taxes.
>

The validity of the claim depends on what you think "the burden"
means. If you consider that the group paying the highest percentage
of all income taxes paid has the burden, then the statement is wrong.
If you consider that the group paying out the highest percentage of
their income has the burden, then the statement is correct.


--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
 
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Pete Stavrakoglou
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Posts: n/a
 
      12-13-2011
"J. Clarke" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed) in.local...
> In article <jc7krd$eke$(E-Mail Removed)>, (E-Mail Removed) says...
>>
>> "Trevor" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>> news:jc6cab$rvn$(E-Mail Removed)...
>> >
>> > "Pete Stavrakoglou" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>> > news:jc4unk$koj$(E-Mail Removed)...
>> >>
>> >> Greece is in the state it's in because of government spending, overly
>> >> generous government benefits, lack of adequate tax collection,
>> >
>> > Dead right there, just as the US would be OK *IF* they actually collected
>> > taxes from the rich and big corporations.
>> > It's certainly not the poor where most of the money went in either country!
>> >
>> > Trevor.

>>
>> Per my last post. The top 1% pay over 40% of all federal income taxes, the
>> top
>> 5% over 70% and te top 10% over 80%.

>
> Source?


Source is the IRS, a little checking will turn it up
http://www.irs.gov/taxstats/indtaxst...133521,00.html

>> You can take all of the money rich people
>> have and it would not put a dent in the deficit because our federal
>> government
>> has an insatiable appetite to spend.

>
>



 
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Pete Stavrakoglou
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Posts: n/a
 
      12-13-2011
"tony cooper" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> On Tue, 13 Dec 2011 08:41:46 -0500, "Pete Stavrakoglou"
> <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>>"Trevor" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>>news:jc6pnp$moj$(E-Mail Removed)...
>>>
>>> "tony cooper" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>>> news(E-Mail Removed)...
>>>>>Governments do the buying with taxpayers money, taxpayers rarely have any
>>>>>say in it.
>>>>
>>>> The government employees who do the buying are, themselves, taxpayers.
>>>> In fact, they are sharing the burden more than many since they are
>>>> employed - usually at rather good salaries
>>>
>>> That's the problem, it's not their money they waste, and they usually have a
>>> far better life style than many others.
>>>
>>>
>>>>and paying income taxes, property taxes, and taxes on purchases.
>>>
>>> Which is why they love flat taxes so much. The old days of progressive taxes
>>> where those who could afford it actually paid more, are just about gone
>>> unfortunately. The new paradigm is the richer you are, the better the
>>> accountant you can afford, shelf companies you can set up, family trusts you
>>> can utilise, off shore tax havens you can register, and the less tax you
>>> actually pay. The tax burdon now falls almost entirely on the middle class
>>> and
>>> poorest members of the community because they have no ability to escape it.
>>>
>>> Trevor.

>>
>>Your claim tha the burden falls on the middle class is wrong. 40% of all
>>federal income taxes are paid by the top 1%, the top 5% pay over 70% of all
>>federal income taxes, the top 10% pay over 80% of all federal income taxes.
>>

> The validity of the claim depends on what you think "the burden"
> means. If you consider that the group paying the highest percentage
> of all income taxes paid has the burden, then the statement is wrong.
> If you consider that the group paying out the highest percentage of
> their income has the burden, then the statement is correct.


There's no obfuscating on this. The "rich" pay their fair share while the
bottom 50% of income earners pay zero federal income taxes. The top 10% of
earners are shouldering the tax burden for 80% of the country. That is quite a
"burden" no matter how you try to spin it.


 
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