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Re: List spam

 
 
Anssi Saari
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      08-18-2011
Ghodmode <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:

> Newsgroups aren't inherently spam-free. They're filtered. At least
> that's the case with Gmane (http://gmane.org/spam.php).
>
> My own ISP doesn't provide a news server and, although there are many
> links for free open news servers, most of them don't seem to work.


You know, Gmane allows access also via NNTP, including this list.
Server news.gmane.org, group name gmane.comp.python.general.

Haven't used it since I get this list via "normal" NNTP as
comp.lang.python. My NNTP access is via a computer club for 8 euros
per year.
 
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gene heskett
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      08-18-2011
On Thursday, August 18, 2011 02:12:58 PM Alain Ketterlin did opine:

> gene heskett <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:
> >> Or save work and find a public nntp server (or setup one, or ask your
> >> provider), and use a news reader to follow the list (even thunderbird
> >> can do this). No spam, no need to store messages on your machine,
> >> auto-purge after a configurable delay, etc.

> >
> > That is asking the user to take considerable effort and resources to
> > do that. What is wrong with the mailing list only approach?

>
> Nothing really.
>
> Regarding effort and resources, once you've found a NNTP server there's
> very little effort (probably less than subscribing to a mailing list). I
> have 4 lines in my .emacs. And this lets me browse dozens of groups (or
> thousands if I had time for this). It might not be easy to find a server
> which will let you post, but that's because a few years back many
> internet providers decided that nntp was too much traffic. I guess it
> would now be considered ridiculous compared to the average web-site.
>
> But I'd like to return the question. What's wrong with nntp?


The sheer volume of traffic eats 99% of an ISP's bandwidth. The last time
I checked with one of the local ISP's that I quit using years ago because
it was 30 miles away and was then long distance, giving me $300 phone
bills, they said their server died (again, and that then traffic was such
that a 300GB hard drive was being subject to a posting lifetime of 3 hours
because it was filling the drive that quickly. At the time, they had 5 T1
circuits, and NNTP was eating 4 of them. To an ISP, that stuff is found on
the ground behind the male of the bovine specie. No ISP I have access to a
mail account on, except google, has the resources to maintain a full
listing nnpt server.

> It looks
> like everybody agrees that nntp brings spam. I just wanted to say that's
> not true, I use nntp extensively and haven't seen spam for months (I'm
> talking about 15-20 groups, not comp.lang.python only).
>
> The real problem here seems to be google groups, which in some way
> forwards spam to the mailing-list. How this happens is beyond my
> understanding. But let's try to fix the real problem.


I could just nuke them, but I suppose I'd then have to resubscribe to about
10 of my mailing lists through the server this msg comes from. That is
gradually happening anyway because posting through a gmail account, you
cannot turn off the dup deletions, so one never knows if ones post to a
list got there until someone replies, you don't get an echo. I have even
tried CCing this address as some have suggested, but that doesn't work
either.

gmail is NOT the huge thing it was touted to be, not by a hell of a long
row of apple trees.

> -- Alain.



Cheers, gene
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
"It's not just a computer -- it's your ass."
-- Cal Keegan
 
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gene heskett
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      08-18-2011
On Thursday, August 18, 2011 02:26:24 PM Peter Pearson did opine:

> On Thu, 18 Aug 2011 12:15:59 -0400, gene heskett <(E-Mail Removed)>
> wrote: [snip]
>
> > What is wrong with the mailing list only approach?

>
> In the mailing-list approach, how do I search for prior discussions
> on a subject? (I'm not particularly opposed to the mailing list,
> I'm just an NNTP follower worried about the uncertainties of change.)


If the message still exists in your local email corpus, kmail for one has
no problems searching it. However, since my corpus is close to 10gigs
because my inbox and one list are not expired, the rest of them are expired
on a selectable schedule that only saves the last 2000 or so msgs.

Cheers, gene
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Hoare's Law of Large Problems:
Inside every large problem is a small problem struggling to get
out.
 
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Terry Reedy
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      08-18-2011

> I did check, though. I found a free, open news server with
> comp.lang.python after 6 that didn't work. Unfortunately, the one I
> found is read-only. I'll have to do some more looking if I want to
> participate in the newsgroup. I set it up in Thunderbird.


I read and post to this and other Python lists via news.gmane.org (free)
with Thunderbird. It mirrors 1000s of technical mail lists, including
200+ with 'python'. I believe it therefore has less spam than c.l.p (ie,
minus whatever gets filtered out by the pipermail at python.org). First
post to any list requires a response to an email. Uptime is pretty good.

--
Terry Jan Reedy

 
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Steven D'Aprano
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      08-19-2011
gene heskett wrote:


>> But I'd like to return the question. What's wrong with nntp?

>
> The sheer volume of traffic eats 99% of an ISP's bandwidth.


I doubt that very much, particularly if the ISP drops the binary newsgroups.

My ISP, Internode, has provided nntp for many years. For a while a few years
back they dropped binary newsgroups, but thay have brought them back. They
wouldn't do that if there wasn't a clear demand for it, and if they didn't
believe that on the balance, providing free Usenet access to customers
didn't pay for itself.

These days, many big ISPs complain about bittorrent using up their
bandwidth. I call shenanigans. That's like my local bottle shop complaining
that 99% of their sales comes from wine, and that stocking all that wine
takes away valuable shelf space that could be used for imported Romanian
beers and Chinese whiskey (no offense to anyone who likes Romanian beer or
Chinese whiskey). It's a nonsense claim -- if your customers want to use
the bandwidth they're paying for on bittorrent, or any other protocol, what
difference does it make to you? It's not like you have to install a second
Interweb tube just for bittorrent, or that bittorrent packets cost more
than HTTP packets. Fer fecks sake, the ISP doesn't even have to run a
bittorrent server! It's practically free money to the ISP, packets go in,
packets go out, they don't have to do a bloody thing with them.

Now, an ISP might not have the bandwidth to supply all the needs of their
customers, that's a separate issue. But complaining that the problem is
specifically because they use bittorrent, as if it would disappear if they
changed to HTTP, is bogus.



--
Steven

 
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gene heskett
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      08-19-2011
On Thursday, August 18, 2011 10:23:49 PM Steven D'Aprano did opine:

> gene heskett wrote:
> >> But I'd like to return the question. What's wrong with nntp?

> >
> > The sheer volume of traffic eats 99% of an ISP's bandwidth.

>
> I doubt that very much, particularly if the ISP drops the binary
> newsgroups.

[...]
> It's not like you have to install a second Interweb tube just for
> bittorrent, or that bittorrent packets cost more than HTTP packets. Fer
> fecks sake, the ISP doesn't even have to run a bittorrent server! It's
> practically free money to the ISP, packets go in, packets go out, they
> don't have to do a bloody thing with them.


Except pay for the bandwidth to get the bytes into their system.

> Now, an ISP might not have the bandwidth to supply all the needs of
> their customers, that's a separate issue.


Yes it is, which is why Hughs has a bandwidth limit cap they lift in the
middle of the night when overall traffic is zilch. The bird(s) only have
so much bandwidth and it costs tens of millions to 'lay another fiber' when
its 22,300 miles up.

OTOH, they have to pay for that bandwidth 24/7, so if they can move the
relatively few high traffic folks usage to 3-5 AM, they can service more
people watching old black and white John Holmes clips at 9-11pm.

> But complaining that the
> problem is specifically because they use bittorrent, as if it would
> disappear if they changed to HTTP, is bogus.


Agreed, that's 100% a red herring.

Cheers, gene
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Q: How many mathematicians does it take to screw in a light bulb?
A: One. He gives it to six Californians, thereby reducing the problem
to the earlier joke.
 
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Terry Reedy
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      08-19-2011
On 8/18/2011 10:10 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:

> Now, an ISP might not have the bandwidth to supply all the needs of their
> customers, that's a separate issue. But complaining that the problem is
> specifically because they use bittorrent, as if it would disappear if they
> changed to HTTP, is bogus.


Or changed to getting their movies via NetFlix, for instance, as Comcast
*is* complaining about. I believe their real complaint is that they are
only paid to move bits, and not for originating them, even though they
already get several times as much per month as NetFlix.

--
Terry Jan Reedy

 
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Dennis Lee Bieber
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      08-19-2011
On Thu, 18 Aug 2011 21:13:09 +0300, Anssi Saari <(E-Mail Removed)> declaimed
the following in gmane.comp.python.general:

> You know, Gmane allows access also via NNTP, including this list.
> Server news.gmane.org, group name gmane.comp.python.general.
>
> Haven't used it since I get this list via "normal" NNTP as
> comp.lang.python. My NNTP access is via a computer club for 8 euros
> per year.


Whereas I had to go to Gmane as the NNTP server "provided" by
Earthlink collected all the spam from GoogleGroups; Gmane only leaks a
few times (but the leaks tend to become massive looking as the
break-through username sends a dozen essentially identical messages with
slight subject changes).

I say "provided" as it seems the former separate
news.west.earthlink.net and news.east.earthlink.net both now route to a
giganews (or whatever that system is). I'm guessing Earthlink decided to
subcontract the NNTP service out.
--
Wulfraed Dennis Lee Bieber AF6VN
http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/(E-Mail Removed) HTTP://wlfraed.home.netcom.com/

 
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Javier
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      08-20-2011
You will lose a lot of people asking/answering interesting stuff, and
maybe eventually the list will die. Me (like many people with little
free time) seldom post in blogs/forums/mailing lists where I need to
register.

gene heskett <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> That is asking the user to take considerable effort and resources to do
> that. What is wrong with the mailing list only approach?



 
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