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Plastic strikes again!

 
 
David Dyer-Bennet
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      08-17-2011
On Aug 17, 7:39*am, RichA <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> I've seen reports that fillers (glass, fibers of various kinds) can
> actually make some plastics weaker than if the plastic alone was
> used. *I can see where specifically laid-down layers of high-strength
> carbon fiber or boron used in conjunction with an epoxy binder would
> be very strong and rigid, but fibers of glass, mixed-in with the
> plastic in a haphazard way doesn't impress.


But what you describe is pretty much the standard
way to make "fiberglass", as used in boats and
airplanes and cars and photo sinks and even
windows (not the transparent part!). Some of
them work harder on orienting the fiber part of
the mixture than others, as I understand it.
 
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PeterN
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      08-17-2011
On 8/17/2011 8:35 AM, RichA wrote:
> On Aug 16, 4:14 pm, John A.<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>> On Tue, 16 Aug 2011 05:52:58 -0700 (PDT), RichA<(E-Mail Removed)>
>> wrote:


>>> On Aug 15, 7:20 pm, PeterN<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>>> On 8/14/2011 11:50 PM, Rich wrote:

>>
>>>>> PeterN<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in news:4e481427$0$12461
>>>>> $(E-Mail Removed)-secrets.com:

>>
>>>>>> On 8/14/2011 1:41 PM, RichA wrote:
>>>>>>> Damn that contraction plastic experiences after hot molding!!

>>
>>>>>>> http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/re...ssage=39111658

>>
>>>>>> Is shoddy manufacturing, or the material used?

>>
>>>>> Could be that, partly. Panasonic shifted solid production from Japan to
>>>>> China.

>>
>>>> It's in their blood, right?

>>
>>>> --
>>>> Peter

>>
>>> They don't believe in quality control. Milk, toys, sheetrock, all
>>> FILTHY and contaminated. Shoddy workmanship all round. The ONLY
>>> reason anything ever comes out of their that is marginally decent is
>>> due to some Japanese control in the plants and product
>>> specifications. But the poor quality we've seen in the last 3-4 years
>>> shows it isn't bullet-proof.

>>
>> And yet, IIRC, they executed the guy responsible for the chemicals
>> that made their way into milk that killed a bunch of kids. I wonder
>> what would happen to a CEO of a company that did something like that
>> here.

>
> The only reason they acted on it was that the World now watches them
> and their fear of exporting their garbage and killing foreigners (and
> their markets) pushed them to act. They killed 50 million of their
> own people in the 1950's, life is cheap there.


How many native Canadians did you ancestors kill?

Way are the Chinese different from any other people? Please explain. Is
it in their blood? Is it that they eat too much Chinese food?

Just answer the question without avoidance.


--
Peter
 
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PeterN
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      08-17-2011
On 8/17/2011 8:39 AM, RichA wrote:
> On Aug 16, 11:23 am, Martin Brown<|||(E-Mail Removed)>
> wrote:
>> On 16/08/2011 16:08, PeterN wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On 8/15/2011 10:57 PM, Robert Coe wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 14 Aug 2011 19:38:07 -0400, PeterN<(E-Mail Removed)>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> : On 8/14/2011 5:22 PM, Robert Coe wrote:
>>>> :> On Sun, 14 Aug 2011 10:41:35 -0700 (PDT),
>>>> RichA<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>>> :> : Damn that contraction plastic experiences after hot molding!!
>>>> :> :
>>>> :> :
>>>> http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/re...ssage=39111658
>>>> :>
>>>> :> IOW, you can make a bad product out of a good material if you cut
>>>> corners
>>>> :> or don't handle the material properly. Actually, I think we knew that,
>>>> :> but thanks anyway for reminding us. It's a dog-eat-bone world out
>>>> there,
>>>> :> and one can hardly be too careful.
>>>> :>
>>>> :
>>>> : I wonder how much effort Rich has put in to compare the coefficient of
>>>> : expansion used, with the coefficient of expansion of likely metallic.
>>>> : And if so, how they are treated in the finished product.

>>
>>>> I believe that some kinds of plastic are more likely to shrink than to
>>>> expand
>>>> under excess heat, as volatile substances are driven out. I wonder if the
>>>> problem is that the camera was left for hours in a broiling hot car.

>>
>>> that makes sense. I thought the coefficient of expansion applies to
>>> variations in temperature. You are introducing a new component. I am not
>>> an engineer. But why wouldn't the volatile substances driven out during
>>> a heat molding process. Unless, perhaps substances in the plastic change
>>> characteristics over time and become volatile.

>>
>> Depends critically on the plastic. Some do contain a trace amount of
>> unreacted monomer that gradually escapes as the material ages. New car
>> smell is a mix of various plasticisers and traces of monomer.
>>
>> Most precision engineering plastics are heavily filled composite
>> materials with properties that are *much* better than raw plastic.
>>
>> What typically happens in a hot car is that very gradually the
>> plasticisers come out of any flexible bits of plastic and they gradually
>> become more brittle. A fate which is accelerated by UV exposure. The
>> thin layer of gunge that condenses on the inside of the windscreen is a
>> mixture of those plasticisers and human skin oils.
>>
>> Something like a bubble pack for hifi leads or batteries that is blow
>> moulded from thin thermoplastic sheet will revert to a somewhat mangled
>> version its original unstressed shape if you pour boiling water on it.
>> Crosslinked thermoset polymer like epoxy will hold its shape whatever.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Martin Brown

>
> I've seen reports that fillers (glass, fibers of various kinds) can
> actually make some plastics weaker than if the plastic alone was
> used. I can see where specifically laid-down layers of high-strength
> carbon fiber or boron used in conjunction with an epoxy binder would
> be very strong and rigid, but fibers of glass, mixed-in with the
> plastic in a haphazard way doesn't impress.


Why do I trust Martin's analysis?
Why do I not trust your unsupported statement?
--
Peter
 
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Ray Fischer
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      08-17-2011
RichA <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>Damn that contraction plastic experiences after hot molding!!


Metal contracts after "hot molding", dumbass.

--
Ray Fischer | Mendocracy (n.) government by lying
http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/(E-Mail Removed) | The new GOP ideal

 
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Ray Fischer
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      08-17-2011
RichA <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>People need to understand that a frigging jetplane isn't using the
>plastic scrap used in a cheap camera body. Example: A carbon fiber
>tube, aircraft grade, 2" wide and about 4ft long costs about $500.00.
>The polycarbone scrap used in the cameras is about 1/1,000th of that
>cost. The two also have VASTLY different structure. So WHY are you
>people comparing the two, there is no KINSHIP between them!


Smirk. Rich doesn't care if it's plastic. He just wants it to be
expensive so that he can feel good about how much money he spent.

--
Ray Fischer | Mendocracy (n.) government by lying
(E-Mail Removed) | The new GOP ideal

 
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John A.
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      08-17-2011
On Wed, 17 Aug 2011 10:01:52 -0400, PeterN
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>On 8/17/2011 8:35 AM, RichA wrote:
>> On Aug 16, 4:14 pm, John A.<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>> On Tue, 16 Aug 2011 05:52:58 -0700 (PDT), RichA<(E-Mail Removed)>
>>> wrote:

>
>>>> On Aug 15, 7:20 pm, PeterN<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>>>> On 8/14/2011 11:50 PM, Rich wrote:
>>>
>>>>>> PeterN<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in news:4e481427$0$12461
>>>>>> $(E-Mail Removed)-secrets.com:
>>>
>>>>>>> On 8/14/2011 1:41 PM, RichA wrote:
>>>>>>>> Damn that contraction plastic experiences after hot molding!!
>>>
>>>>>>>> http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/re...ssage=39111658
>>>
>>>>>>> Is shoddy manufacturing, or the material used?
>>>
>>>>>> Could be that, partly. Panasonic shifted solid production from Japan to
>>>>>> China.
>>>
>>>>> It's in their blood, right?
>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Peter
>>>
>>>> They don't believe in quality control. Milk, toys, sheetrock, all
>>>> FILTHY and contaminated. Shoddy workmanship all round. The ONLY
>>>> reason anything ever comes out of their that is marginally decent is
>>>> due to some Japanese control in the plants and product
>>>> specifications. But the poor quality we've seen in the last 3-4 years
>>>> shows it isn't bullet-proof.
>>>
>>> And yet, IIRC, they executed the guy responsible for the chemicals
>>> that made their way into milk that killed a bunch of kids. I wonder
>>> what would happen to a CEO of a company that did something like that
>>> here.

>>
>> The only reason they acted on it was that the World now watches them
>> and their fear of exporting their garbage and killing foreigners (and
>> their markets) pushed them to act. They killed 50 million of their
>> own people in the 1950's, life is cheap there.

>
>How many native Canadians did you ancestors kill?
>
>Way are the Chinese different from any other people? Please explain. Is
>it in their blood? Is it that they eat too much Chinese food?


I think over there they just call it food.
 
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PeterN
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      08-18-2011
On 8/17/2011 11:06 PM, Rich wrote:
> PeterN<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in
> news:4e4a896c$0$12479$(E-Mail Removed)-secrets.com:
>
>> On 8/16/2011 8:59 AM, RichA wrote:
>>> On Aug 15, 7:20 pm, PeterN<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>>> On 8/14/2011 11:50 PM, Rich wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> PeterN<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in
>>>>> news:4e481427$0$12461 $(E-Mail Removed)-secrets.com:
>>>>
>>>>>> On 8/14/2011 1:41 PM, RichA wrote:
>>>>>>> Damn that contraction plastic experiences after hot molding!!
>>>>
>>>>>>> http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/re...1&message=3911
>>>>>>> 1658
>>>>
>>>>>> Is shoddy manufacturing, or the material used?
>>>>
>>>>> Could be that, partly. Panasonic shifted solid production from
>>>>> Japan to China.
>>>>
>>>> It's in their blood, right?
>>>
>>> Only heavy metals and effluents from burned plastic. China is a
>>> polluted cess-pit.
>>>
>>>

>>
>> No other people have ever done that, right?
>> Only the Chinese?
>>
>> Must be the folk that set the Cuyahoga on fire ate too much Chinese
>> food.
>>
>>

>
> Sorry, is this ancient history week? Did you know the Romans fed people
> to wild animals?


And that has what to do with Chinese people? The Cuyahoga fire took
place long after China had a Communist regime.

--
Peter
 
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Robert Coe
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      08-19-2011
On Tue, 16 Aug 2011 11:04:18 -0400, PeterN <(E-Mail Removed)>
wrote:
: On 8/16/2011 8:57 AM, RichA wrote:
: > On Aug 15, 7:59 pm, PeterN<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
: >> to clarify my prior response.
: >>
: >> What adjustments are needed for the coefficient of expansion for each of
: >> the materials, when removing them from the mold?
: >>
: >> --
: >> Peter
: >
: > You are assuming the mold is actually any good and the problem isn't
: > happening there, with the equipment. 20 years ago, an optics firm in
: > California was turning out terrible products because old mold masters
: > were worn. Didn't fix the problem until they replaced them.
: > Half the Chinese production used to be (still?) done in their
: > backyards over bonfires. That's how they render down old electronics
: > to scavenge metals to this day.
:
: I am assuming that you would answer my question.

How long have you been in this newsgroup, Peter? :^)

Bob
 
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PeterN
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      08-19-2011
On 8/19/2011 10:30 AM, Robert Coe wrote:
> On Tue, 16 Aug 2011 11:04:18 -0400, PeterN<(E-Mail Removed)>
> wrote:
> : On 8/16/2011 8:57 AM, RichA wrote:
> :> On Aug 15, 7:59 pm, PeterN<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> :>> to clarify my prior response.
> :>>
> :>> What adjustments are needed for the coefficient of expansion for each of
> :>> the materials, when removing them from the mold?
> :>>
> :>> --
> :>> Peter
> :>
> :> You are assuming the mold is actually any good and the problem isn't
> :> happening there, with the equipment. 20 years ago, an optics firm in
> :> California was turning out terrible products because old mold masters
> :> were worn. Didn't fix the problem until they replaced them.
> :> Half the Chinese production used to be (still?) done in their
> :> backyards over bonfires. That's how they render down old electronics
> :> to scavenge metals to this day.
> :
> : I am assuming that you would answer my question.
>
> How long have you been in this newsgroup, Peter? :^)
>
> Bob



Did I really need <\end sarcastic tag> ?

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Peter
 
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Robert Coe
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      08-20-2011
On Wed, 17 Aug 2011 05:35:41 -0700 (PDT), RichA <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
: On Aug 16, 4:14*pm, John A. <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
: > On Tue, 16 Aug 2011 05:52:58 -0700 (PDT), RichA <(E-Mail Removed)>
: > wrote:
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: > >On Aug 15, 7:20*pm, PeterN <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
: > >> On 8/14/2011 11:50 PM, Rich wrote:
: >
: > >> > PeterN<(E-Mail Removed)> *wrote in news:4e481427$0$12461
: > >> > $(E-Mail Removed)-secrets.com:
: >
: > >> >> On 8/14/2011 1:41 PM, RichA wrote:
: > >> >>> Damn that contraction plastic experiences after hot molding!!
: >
: > >> >>>http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/re...ssage=39111658
: >
: > >> >> Is shoddy manufacturing, or the material used?
: >
: > >> > Could be that, partly. *Panasonic shifted solid production from Japan to
: > >> > China.
: >
: > >> It's in their blood, right?
: >
: > >> --
: > >> Peter
: >
: > >They don't believe in quality control. *Milk, toys, sheetrock, all
: > >FILTHY and contaminated. *Shoddy workmanship all round. *The ONLY
: > >reason anything ever comes out of their that is marginally decent is
: > >due to some Japanese control in the plants and product
: > >specifications. *But the poor quality we've seen in the last 3-4 years
: > >shows it isn't bullet-proof.
: >
: > And yet, IIRC, they executed the guy responsible for the chemicals
: > that made their way into milk that killed a bunch of kids. I wonder
: > what would happen to a CEO of a company that did something like that
: > here.
:
: The only reason they acted on it was that the World now watches them
: and their fear of exporting their garbage and killing foreigners (and
: their markets) pushed them to act. They killed 50 million of their
: own people in the 1950's, life is cheap there.

Is that the opinion of the Chinese people or just your take on the issue? How
many people did you talk to about it, the last time you were there? Are you
now proficient enough in Mandarin to converse on the street in Beijing without
a translator, or are you still fluent only in Cantonese?

Bob
 
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