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Re: More shooter harassment

 
 
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      07-20-2011
In article <4e26b965$0$12523$(E-Mail Removed)-secrets.com>, PeterN
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> And when the smartphone gets hacked, there will be no money your
> account. It may not happen for a few years, but it will happen.
> Do you think there is no unreported debit card, or ATM fraud?


and that's a reason not to offer the service? should we eliminate atms
and online banking because there's a risk of fraud?
 
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      07-20-2011
In article <(E-Mail Removed)>, tony cooper
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> >> >> You would not be allowed to deposit anything in a person's account at
> >> >> my bank if you are not on the account. Not cash, not a certified
> >> >> gov't check, not anything.
> >> >
> >> >get a different bank.
> >> >
> >> >all banks allow deposits to an account with properly endorsed checks.
> >>
> >> Interesting the way you say "all banks allow" when I have had just the
> >> opposite experience.

> >
> >your bank is the oddball.

>
> How did you conduct this particular survey? I spoke of one bank where
> I had personal experience. You are making claims about all banks.
> Where do you get your information?


numerous banks with which i've done business don't require it (much
more than your single sample) and i asked my accountant, who said
there's no requirement although some banks might be anal about it. as i
said, get a different bank. why put up with that garbage.

> When you are in airports, do you stop at branch bank offices and ask
> them about their deposit restrictions? Just how early do you arrive
> for your flights? You seem to have a lot to do in airports.


flights are often late, what else am i going to do?

> >> That's a business account. This is about a personal account. Alan
> >> was referring to a personal account.

> >
> >it's *any* account.

>
> Alan is in Canada, and Canada may have different banking laws. In the
> US, personal accounts and business accounts have different rules. I
> have had both personal and business accounts.


so have i.
 
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tony cooper
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      07-20-2011
On Wed, 20 Jul 2011 08:21:33 -0700, Savageduck
<savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:

>On 2011-07-20 07:33:20 -0700, tony cooper <(E-Mail Removed)> said:
>
>> On Wed, 20 Jul 2011 06:06:45 -0700, Savageduck
>> <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Using the Bank's mobile app, you log in to your account, select deposit
>>> check, and then take a photograph of the face & back of the check. The
>>> app will read the amount on the check and ask for confirmation that is
>>> has read the correct figure and then complete the deposit.
>>> This is exactly the same way the deposit would be made at a Bank specific ATM.

>>
>> Just out of curiosity, what happens to the check? As you describe
>> above, the actual check is not given to the bank and the person
>> cashing it retains it.
>>
>> Unless the phone has some capability of imprinting something on the
>> check, the holder of the check would seemingly be free to take that
>> check to another bank where he has an account and deposit the check in
>> that bank. It would eventually come to light, but it would cause a
>> problem for the payee and the second bank.

>
>The full tracking number is recorded with that photograph. Once the
>transaction is completed no further transactions are permitted with
>that document. So even if you took it to a bricks & mortar bank, or ATM
>to attempt a second deposit, when the tracking number is rescanned, the
>system would report the check as previously deposited and not permit a
>second deposit.


So what happens to the check? Does the payee keep it? Throw it in a
trash receptacle? Leave it on the table at Starbucks after they have
made the phone deposit? I really don't like the idea that my
personal checks are floating around for anyone to pick up.

I know I have exposure anytime I write a check, but my exposure is
more limited than what could be happening here.

I'm also a little dubious about this tracking number safety measure.
We all know that we can deposit a fake check, a fake money order, and
a fake certified check in our account. The bank accepts them if they
don't know they are fake. They don't check with the originating bank
before accepting the deposit. The amount is later reversed from your
account, with fees, but the deposit was accepted. I don't have any
more trust that the bank will check the tracking number.

If the deposited amount isn't frozen at time of deposit, the depositor
can withdraw cash based on the balance in the account.

I am *not* saying the system is flawed in any way. I am saying that I
haven't seen anything that says the system is secure.

>The Bank's computer and check clearing system.


That clearing system goes into effect *after* the check is deposited
and the bank reverses the deposit. Sometimes, weeks later.

I very recently declined to accept payment of over $850 for an eBay
sale because it was offered by bank draft by a foreign buyer. The
deposit would have been accepted by my bank and reversed up to six
weeks later if the check was fraudulent. The eBay transaction was
voided. (Details by email if you want proof)




--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
 
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      07-20-2011
In article <(E-Mail Removed)>, tony cooper
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> >> Just out of curiosity, what happens to the check? As you describe
> >> above, the actual check is not given to the bank and the person
> >> cashing it retains it.
> >>
> >> Unless the phone has some capability of imprinting something on the
> >> check, the holder of the check would seemingly be free to take that
> >> check to another bank where he has an account and deposit the check in
> >> that bank. It would eventually come to light, but it would cause a
> >> problem for the payee and the second bank.

> >
> >The full tracking number is recorded with that photograph. Once the
> >transaction is completed no further transactions are permitted with
> >that document. So even if you took it to a bricks & mortar bank, or ATM
> >to attempt a second deposit, when the tracking number is rescanned, the
> >system would report the check as previously deposited and not permit a
> >second deposit.

>
> So what happens to the check? Does the payee keep it? Throw it in a
> trash receptacle? Leave it on the table at Starbucks after they have
> made the phone deposit? I really don't like the idea that my
> personal checks are floating around for anyone to pick up.


then don't leave them around. once the transaction clears, shred the
check. it's really quite simple.

> I know I have exposure anytime I write a check, but my exposure is
> more limited than what could be happening here.
>
> I'm also a little dubious about this tracking number safety measure.
> We all know that we can deposit a fake check, a fake money order, and
> a fake certified check in our account. The bank accepts them if they
> don't know they are fake. They don't check with the originating bank
> before accepting the deposit. The amount is later reversed from your
> account, with fees, but the deposit was accepted. I don't have any
> more trust that the bank will check the tracking number.


what does that have to do with deposit by phone?

there are always going to be ways to scam the system, regardless of how
it's done.

were you against atms when they came out too?
 
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tony cooper
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      07-20-2011
On Wed, 20 Jul 2011 12:56:38 -0400, Alan Browne
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>On 2011-07-20 10:33 , tony cooper wrote:
>> On Wed, 20 Jul 2011 06:06:45 -0700, Savageduck
>> <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Using the Bank's mobile app, you log in to your account, select deposit
>>> check, and then take a photograph of the face& back of the check. The
>>> app will read the amount on the check and ask for confirmation that is
>>> has read the correct figure and then complete the deposit.
>>> This is exactly the same way the deposit would be made at a Bank specific ATM.

>>
>> Just out of curiosity, what happens to the check? As you describe
>> above, the actual check is not given to the bank and the person
>> cashing it retains it.

>
>The user agreement would cover it, I imagine. And that (eg) would ask
>you to hold onto the cheque until it cleared with no issue (say 15
>business days) and then mark it and/or destroy it. Or rules to same effect.


They would be asking the payee to hold on to the check that period
time. There's no incentive for the payee to go to any trouble for the
bank or the payer. The payee - the person to whom the check is
written - wants his money and doesn't care about the check writer's
vulnerability.

> From the legal standpoint, if you double deposited it, the Treasury
>Department would likely see to a long term relation with Ben Dover.


Sure, but crime exists and stupid people turn to it every day.


--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
 
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      07-20-2011
In article <(E-Mail Removed)>, tony cooper
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> >> Just out of curiosity, what happens to the check? As you describe
> >> above, the actual check is not given to the bank and the person
> >> cashing it retains it.

> >
> >The user agreement would cover it, I imagine. And that (eg) would ask
> >you to hold onto the cheque until it cleared with no issue (say 15
> >business days) and then mark it and/or destroy it. Or rules to same effect.

>
> They would be asking the payee to hold on to the check that period
> time. There's no incentive for the payee to go to any trouble for the
> bank or the payer. The payee - the person to whom the check is
> written - wants his money and doesn't care about the check writer's
> vulnerability.


he wants the transaction to clear, so he'll keep it until it does. it's
basically the 'receipt' had he gone to a bank. it has nothing to do
with the check writer or the bank.
 
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tony cooper
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      07-20-2011
On Wed, 20 Jul 2011 11:09:39 -0700, Savageduck
<savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:

>> So what happens to the check? Does the payee keep it?

>Yes.
>> Throw it in a
>> trash receptacle? Leave it on the table at Starbucks after they have
>> made the phone deposit?

>
>Maybe.
>This is a vulnerability for the check writer, over which he has no control.
>
>> I really don't like the idea that my
>> personal checks are floating around for anyone to pick up.

>
>...and just how are you going to dictate how somebody choses to deposit
>a check?


As I said, I'm not saying there are flaws in the system. I'm saying
that what has been written here has not addressed what I see *could*
be flaws.

I counted the number of checks I have written in 2011: 0. Every
transaction where I needed to send money to someone was done by
electronic transfer (BillPay). The checks I wrote in 2010 were to
people like the electrician who did some wiring at my house and wanted
paid before he left. I wanted proof of payment, so I wrote a check.

>> I know I have exposure anytime I write a check, but my exposure is
>> more limited than what could be happening here.

>
>The service is here so this is happening now, and you have no say in
>the method of deposit used by the payee.


That is not reassuring.

>>
>> I'm also a little dubious about this tracking number safety measure.
>> We all know that we can deposit a fake check, a fake money order, and
>> a fake certified check in our account. The bank accepts them if they
>> don't know they are fake. They don't check with the originating bank
>> before accepting the deposit. The amount is later reversed from your
>> account, with fees, but the deposit was accepted. I don't have any
>> more trust that the bank will check the tracking number.

>
>The full tracking number is the set of numbers on the bottom of any
>check. It is made up of the routing#, the individual check#, and the
>account#. This is unique to each individual check. It is this number
>which facilitates same day clearing.


And you are suggesting that this data is transmitted to all banks
immediately after one bank cashes the check?

>ATM, Smart phone,


Dunno about these. Don't use 'em.

>and even teller deposits are limited as to the amount
>of cash which can be drawn against them at the time of deposit.


No, they aren't. I can withdraw the full amount of a check deposited
at either of my banks unless the check is drawn on a securities firm.
If I withdraw money from a stockbroker account, there is a hold on a
certain percentage of the check amount. Other than this kind of
check, I know of no other deposits that have any restrictions.

We could have a case here of state banking laws. The above pertains
to Florida.

>> I am *not* saying the system is flawed in any way. I am saying that I
>> haven't seen anything that says the system is secure.

>
>Agreed.
>>
>>> The Bank's computer and check clearing system.

>>
>> That clearing system goes into effect *after* the check is deposited
>> and the bank reverses the deposit. Sometimes, weeks later.

>
>Today banks will clear checks the same day. The account drawn on is
>debited within minutes of the deposit details being entered into the
>clearing system. The funds are not fully available to the payee until
>the clearing process is complete and currently that is at the most 2
>business/working days.


Then why do I read in the newspaper about someone who accepted a
check, deposited it, and then had the bank come back weeks later and
reverse the deposit and add fees? Not infrequently, either.

>>
>> I very recently declined to accept payment of over $850 for an eBay
>> sale because it was offered by bank draft by a foreign buyer. The
>> deposit would have been accepted by my bank and reversed up to six
>> weeks later if the check was fraudulent. The eBay transaction was
>> voided. (Details by email if you want proof)

>
>That is a good reason for eBay sellers to accept PayPal.


The buyer refused to pay by PayPal. I would have accepted that.

>Usually foreign bank drafts are drawn in the currency of the receiving
>nation, in our case US$ and are as good as any US bank cashier's check.


Aye, there's the rub. Fraudulent bank cashier's checks are not at all
unknown...US or foreign.

>I also make and received electronic transfers online. When my
>"Step-daughter from Hell", is in need of "emergency" funds, it is
>quicker for me to go online and make a transfer to her account. That
>way it is available to her immediately with no check to clear,
>basically instantaneous, secure, and non-postal service dependent.


Yes, I offered wire transfer but he then wanted the value declared at
less than the purchase price to avoid duty. Since I was insuring the
item, I declined that.

--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
 
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tony cooper
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      07-20-2011
On Wed, 20 Jul 2011 11:17:31 -0700, Savageduck
<savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:

>Banks that I deal with locally, BofA, Wells Fargo, & Rabo Bank seem to
>have no issue with individuals unknown to them making deposits into
>accounts held at their banks.


As a policeman, would you have felt comfortable with this?

Let's say you are investigating Rocky's Pawn Shop for dealing in
stolen goods. Rocky comes to you and says he's made three $100
deposits to your account, retained the deposit slips, and will claim
they were bribes if you pursue the case. You want to defend yourself
to IAD on this? Stink is never really completely removable.

Same scenario, but you're a building inspector. The owner of a
building makes the same claim saying if you don't give him a pass on
violations he'll report that you took bribes.


--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
 
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      07-20-2011
In article <(E-Mail Removed)>, tony cooper
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> >> I know I have exposure anytime I write a check, but my exposure is
> >> more limited than what could be happening here.

> >
> >The service is here so this is happening now, and you have no say in
> >the method of deposit used by the payee.

>
> That is not reassuring.


you never had a say in what the person did with a check.

> >and even teller deposits are limited as to the amount
> >of cash which can be drawn against them at the time of deposit.

>
> No, they aren't. I can withdraw the full amount of a check deposited
> at either of my banks unless the check is drawn on a securities firm.
> If I withdraw money from a stockbroker account, there is a hold on a
> certain percentage of the check amount. Other than this kind of
> check, I know of no other deposits that have any restrictions.


no you can't. depending on the amount, some or all of it will be held
at least one day. sometimes banks waive the hold, but they don't have
to, and it's often just $100 for the same day.

> We could have a case here of state banking laws. The above pertains
> to Florida.


it's federal.

> >Today banks will clear checks the same day. The account drawn on is
> >debited within minutes of the deposit details being entered into the
> >clearing system. The funds are not fully available to the payee until
> >the clearing process is complete and currently that is at the most 2
> >business/working days.

>
> Then why do I read in the newspaper about someone who accepted a
> check, deposited it, and then had the bank come back weeks later and
> reverse the deposit and add fees? Not infrequently, either.


same reason you read about other crimes. has nothing to do with deposit
by phone.
 
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tony cooper
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      07-20-2011
On Wed, 20 Jul 2011 11:49:28 -0400, nospam <(E-Mail Removed)>
wrote:

>> I don't recall ever being asked for ID when depositing money. All they
>> ever wanted was a properly filled out deposit slip. I can't see any
>> reason why one would need an ID to make a deposit.

>
>exactly. banks will gladly take money. if it goes into the wrong
>account, it will get sorted out eventually.


Now *that's* what I want to hear from my bank: if the money goes to
the wrong account it will be sorted out eventually. I'll tell the
people who I need to pay that I will do so when things get sorted out.



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Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
 
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