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tools for programming applets

 
 
Joshua Cranmer
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      05-23-2011
On 05/22/2011 10:17 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>> JavaScript itself has had no more fundamental changes than Java has had.
>> As far as I can see, the only truly new things (i.e., not present in any
>> implementation for some time) were the introduction of functional methods
>> to Array, i.e., arr.forEach, arr.filter, etc.

>
> Functions as first-class objects.


Nope, that's original in JavaScript. It's as new to JavaScript as
classes are to Java.

>> Now, let me end by pointing out that Java has been able to do all of
>> these things for over a decade.

>
> And yet nobody was ever able to do them. Where is the Java equivalent of
> jQuery, for example?


How about Swing? Java's graphics APIs are not so shoddy you need a
massive library just to do anything sane with them

--
Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not
tried it. -- Donald E. Knuth
 
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Lawrence D'Oliveiro
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      05-23-2011
In message <irckka$plt$(E-Mail Removed)>, Joshua Cranmer wrote:

> On 05/22/2011 10:17 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>>> JavaScript itself has had no more fundamental changes than Java has had.
>>> As far as I can see, the only truly new things (i.e., not present in any
>>> implementation for some time) were the introduction of functional
>>> methods to Array, i.e., arr.forEach, arr.filter, etc.

>>
>> Functions as first-class objects.

>
> Nope, that's original in JavaScript.


So are you beginning to understand that it’s not JavaScript playing catch-up
to Java?

>>> Now, let me end by pointing out that Java has been able to do all of
>>> these things for over a decade.

>>
>> And yet nobody was ever able to do them. Where is the Java equivalent of
>> jQuery, for example?

>
> How about Swing?


How about it?
 
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Lew
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      05-23-2011
On 05/23/2011 02:44 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> In message<irckka$plt$(E-Mail Removed)>, Joshua Cranmer wrote:
>
>> On 05/22/2011 10:17 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>
>>>> JavaScript itself has had no more fundamental changes than Java has had.
>>>> As far as I can see, the only truly new things (i.e., not present in any
>>>> implementation for some time) were the introduction of functional
>>>> methods to Array, i.e., arr.forEach, arr.filter, etc.
>>>
>>> Functions as first-class objects.

>>
>> Nope, that's original in JavaScript.

>
> So are you beginning to understand that it’s not JavaScript playing catch-up
> to Java?


That's a typical trollish maneuver, Lawrence, shifting to an opposite stance
when someone refutes your original point. I guess your original point you
admit to be wrong, given how quickly you dropped it when challenged, Lawrence.

>>>> Now, let me end by pointing out that Java has been able to do all of
>>>> these things for over a decade.
>>>
>>> And yet nobody was ever able to do them. Where is the Java equivalent of
>>> jQuery, for example?

>>
>> How about Swing?

>
> How about it?


Oh, Lawrence, Lawrence, Lawrence,

How about you drop your intellectually dishonest bullshit?

Lawrence?

I notice you're too frightened to answer me, Lawrence.

--
Lew
Honi soit qui mal y pense.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi.../c/cf/Friz.jpg
 
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Joshua Cranmer
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      05-23-2011
On 05/23/2011 02:44 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> In message<irckka$plt$(E-Mail Removed)>, Joshua Cranmer wrote:
>
>> On 05/22/2011 10:17 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>
>>>> JavaScript itself has had no more fundamental changes than Java has had.
>>>> As far as I can see, the only truly new things (i.e., not present in any
>>>> implementation for some time) were the introduction of functional
>>>> methods to Array, i.e., arr.forEach, arr.filter, etc.
>>>
>>> Functions as first-class objects.

>>
>> Nope, that's original in JavaScript.

>
> So are you beginning to understand that it’s not JavaScript playing catch-up
> to Java?


/me sighs.

1. It's not JavaScript playing catchup. The language itself has had no
significant change (I'm pretty sure generators are not part of ES5, only
ES:harmony...).

2. The features of the DOM are adding no functionality that Java itself
does not have.

3. "Catch-up" does not imply removing features to achieve a convergence
of languages.

>> How about Swing?

>
> How about it?


That you completely cut off all context of where I explained this.
Sheesh, you're getting as bad as Mr.... I can't remember the original
text he wrote, but I'm sure this will convince him to drop by

--
Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not
tried it. -- Donald E. Knuth
 
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horos22
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      05-23-2011
Look guys,

I see that I caused a bit of a firestorm - which was not my intent -
and I see that people are attributing motives to me that are
completely baseless. (no - I'm not up to anything 'nefarious', no I'm
not trying to hack the pentagon.)

The site in question is not a large-scale, fully-funded site. It
doesn't - and I don't - have the financial means to fully duplicate
the environment just for the sake of doing testing and development.
Frankly, it's a not-for-profit and the work is also not-for-profit.

Furthermore, *no* I'm not talking about changing a production system
'in place' - in fact I'm making my best possible effort *not* to
change the production system.

By keeping things local - in just changes to the client (the applet),
and not writing back any data to the production system - I'm
guaranteeing that I'm keeping the production system intact.

In fact I'm doing better than that. If I can run tests against *real*
production data, I can make a better guarantee that the applet would
work better than just by regression tests alone.

Sheesh. I swear that developers (myself included) have been in this
industry SO LONG that they take for granted the bulky, resource
intensive, extra-life-support-systems-required effort that programming
has become.

Here's a clue - not everything developed has a requirement of
thousands of transactions per second, page views in the millions, and
teams of hundreds. And not every effort is capitalized in the millions
(or even thousands) of dollars.

So think small in answering this question, will you? It looks like -
from your responses - that I'll have to cobble something up on my
client to do the work. Or have the site administrator put a special
directive for my IP in the server to handle my testing, such that the
data comes from the server, but the applet comes from localhost.

And stop with the nefarious purposes line of thought.. ok? It isn't
conducive to reasoned conversation, and frankly it makes otherwise
intelligent people sound like conspiracy nuts.

Ed
 
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horos22
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      05-23-2011
On May 22, 6:15*am, markspace <-@.> wrote:
> On 5/22/2011 5:53 AM, Lew wrote:
>
>
>
> > I just cannot buy that this is the real reason.

>
> I think it is. *There are a couple of tools that let you replace CSS on
> an HTML page. *The page design folks use them to mock up new pages or
> fix errors before propagating back to the server.
>
> He's just assuming that applets are like HTML. *It's a rookie maneuver,
> nothing more.


Mark,

I think you get my drift, but I'd raise you one further. Albeit
insecure, there *should* be a way to replace applets like you would
replace CSS. It would make things a helluva lot simpler in
development. This shouldn't be turned on by default, but it should be
there.

BTW there are tons of things that sense for development purposes, that
make no sense for production deployment. Why this is any different is
beyond me.

Ed
 
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horos22
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      05-23-2011

> Microsoft??
>
> > You've GOT to be kidding me.

>
> Microsoft?? No, YOURE the one kidding me.


95% of the people running your code are running microsoft browsers and
microsoft java implementations. Do you *not* test your applet against
all of these, especially for gui presentation?

Rsync is useless if you aren't running your development client on the
same os as the server, or if you are using licensed code anywhere.

Ed
 
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Lew
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      05-23-2011
horos22 wrote:
> Look guys,
>
> I see that I caused a bit of a firestorm - which was not my intent -
> and I see that people are attributing motives to me that are
> completely baseless. (no - I'm not up to anything 'nefarious', no I'm
> not trying to hack the pentagon [sic].)
>
> The site in question is not a large-scale, fully-funded site. It
> doesn't - and I don't - have the financial means to fully duplicate
> the environment just for the sake of doing testing and development.
> Frankly, it's a not-for-profit and the work is also not-for-profit.
>
> Furthermore, *no* I'm not talking about changing a production system
> 'in place' - in fact I'm making my best possible effort *not* to
> change the production system.
>
> By keeping things local - in just changes to the client (the applet),


Applets are server-side, not clients.

> and not writing back any data to the production system - I'm
> guaranteeing that I'm keeping the production system intact.


You mean, other than by trying to circumvent its security.

> In fact I'm doing better than that. If I can run tests against *real*
> production data, I can make a better guarantee that the applet would
> work better than just by regression tests alone.


No one has yet suggested regression tests alone. Where did that come from?

> Sheesh. I swear that developers (myself included) have been in this
> industry SO LONG that they take for granted the bulky, resource
> intensive, extra-life-support-systems-required effort that programming
> has become.


Irrelevant comment. We were talking about applets and their security
mechanism. There's no "bulky, resource intensive,
extra-life-support-systems-required effort that programming has become".
There's only your irrational resistance to the facts.

> Here's a clue - not everything developed has a requirement of
> thousands of transactions per second, page views in the millions, and
> teams of hundreds. And not every effort is capitalized in the millions
> (or even thousands) of dollars.


What does that have to do with anything?\

To quote you, "Sheesh". Get a grip.

> So think small in answering this question, will you? It looks like -
> from your responses - that I'll have to cobble something up on my
> client to do the work. Or have the site administrator put a special
> directive for my IP in the server to handle my testing, such that the
> data comes from the server, but the applet comes from localhost.


"Think small"? Are you on drugs? This isn't about scale, this is about
applet security, which BY DESIGN prevents the heinous activity for which
you're asking. This is true small or large.

And having a testbed separate from the production server is not "large",
doesn't mean "millions" or "gaziilions" or any other of that hyperbolic
bullshit you're pooping out.

Sober up, take a deep breath, and approach your problem rationally, son.

> And stop with the nefarious purposes line of thought.. ok? It isn't
> conducive to reasoned conversation, and frankly it makes otherwise
> intelligent people sound like conspiracy nuts.


You kept fighting the truth and asking for a nefarious, security-circumventing
technique even after your question was asked. Maybe if you'd been more
forthcoming initially, and less insulting right now, we'd have less basis to
suspect your motives. The conclusion was entirely rational based on the
evidence you provided. Your attempt to duck responsibility for that doesn't
make anyone else look less intelligent, horos22 (not your real name).

So stop with the blaming us for your behavior, hm-K?

--
Lew
Honi soit qui mal y pense.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi.../c/cf/Friz.jpg
 
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Lew
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      05-23-2011
On 05/23/2011 11:38 AM, horos22 wrote:
> On May 22, 6:15 am, markspace<-@.> wrote:
>> On 5/22/2011 5:53 AM, Lew wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> I just cannot buy that this is the real reason.

>>
>> I think it is. There are a couple of tools that let you replace CSS on
>> an HTML page. The page design folks use them to mock up new pages or
>> fix errors before propagating back to the server.
>>
>> He's just assuming that applets are like HTML. It's a rookie maneuver,
>> nothing more.

>
> Mark,
>
> I think you get my drift, but I'd raise you one further. Albeit
> insecure, there *should* be a way to replace applets like you would
> replace CSS. It would make things a helluva lot simpler in
> development. This shouldn't be turned on by default, but it should be
> there.
>
> BTW there are tons of things that sense for development purposes, that
> make no sense for production deployment. Why this is any different is
> beyond me.


No, there shouldn't. How would an applet call back to the correct host if you
have it mounted from localhost? Applets are only allowed to get resources
from their own server.

Your fundamental error in thought is that applets are not at all like CSS.
CSS is a brower-interpreted, client-side phenomenon. Applets are a JVM-run,
server-side phenomenon that just happen to run out of a browser. Big difference.

Now stop whining about your pathetic thoughts of how things "should" be and
deal with reality as it actually is, or find a profession that doesn't require
rational reasoning. Or write your own technology to compete with applets.
Just stop whining over and over and over and over and over and over about how
you think in your infinite wisdom and genius that things should be different
than they actually are. You'll never get the job done that way.

It's pathetic.

--
Lew
Honi soit qui mal y pense.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi.../c/cf/Friz.jpg
 
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markspace
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      05-23-2011
On 5/23/2011 8:38 AM, horos22 wrote:

> I think you get my drift, but I'd raise you one further. Albeit
> insecure, there *should* be a way to replace applets like you would
> replace CSS.



Well, no, I disagree. I'm sorry your on a corner case of development
where you're trying to do this on a shoe-string, but I don't think it's
practical for Oracle or anyone else to solve all the problems of all the
shoe string developers out there. It's just too complicated. It might
work in one persons web site but break in all the other shoe string
sites out there. It's just not a solvable problem.

And I'd still like to hear what development environments you use that
allow you to slide things into production servers and production systems
with out making an modifications of your own code. I might appreciate
being able to use one of those tools some day.




 
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