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PeeCee wrote:

> On 22/04/2011 4:50 p.m., ~misfit~ wrote:
>> As the subject says, does anyone know where I can get at least one or
>> two, maybe up to three new, or at least *modern* IDE laptop drives at a
>> price that won't prevent me from eating for months?
>>
>> My hobby is playing with older ThinkPads these days. If I watch Tradme
>> dilligently enough I can, now and then, get a bargain that will keep my
>> busy and happy for quite a while. I'm not really buying to on-sell as I
>> simply don't have the capital to buy in that 'sector' of laptops. Most of
>> mine are as slow as a single-core Atom, if not slower. (Not taking the
>> fatser memory bus in the Atom-equipped netbooks.)
>>
>> However they'd sure benefit from a faster HDD. Quite a few of them have
>> 20, 30 or 40GB 4,200rpm drives and I know from experience that putting a
>> newer 5,400rpm drive makes them *way* more usable. Alas! From what I can
>> see a new 80GB IDE drive is around the same price as a 500GB SATA HDD, if
>> not dearer!
>>
>> LOL, now that the laptops are affordable for me to 'play' with the HDDs
>> to upgrade them a bit aren't.
>>
>> I've looked at all of my bookmarked NZ computer dealers and it doesn't
>> look good. This post is almost a last resort really. I *know* that a PIII
>> / 1.2GHz equipped laptop can be quite snappy but, with a 4,200rpm HDD
>> startup and load times are just abysmal. Even though this is mostly a
>> hobby for me I'd like to be able to use these things from time-to-time as
>> well as just refurbish them.
>>
>> TIA for any help.
>
>
> Hi Shaun
>
> Wish you the best of luck.
>
> I did a pile of T,R & X series Thinkpads last year with locked
> motherboards for a colleague. They were 'very' cheap but my colleague
> despite having much better industry contacts than I, hasn't been able to
> source cheap hard drives in the six months since I did the job.
>
> Best
> Paul.

There is a lot of engineering technology in a hard drive that would set
a certain level of "base-line" cost, regardless of speed and capacity.
Also, hard drive manufacturing competition is now at an all-time low
after the recent acquisition of Samsung's HDD division by Seagate.
Now there are only two main suppliers of HDDs: Seagate and Western Digital.

Somewhere on teh intarwebs Murray Symon wrote:
[snip]
> There is a lot of engineering technology in a hard drive that would
> set
> a certain level of "base-line" cost, regardless of speed and capacity.
> Also, hard drive manufacturing competition is now at an all-time low
> after the recent acquisition of Samsung's HDD division by Seagate.
> Now there are only two main suppliers of HDDs: Seagate and Western
> Digital.

Agreed. However that doesn't explain why a single-platter / two head 80GB
5,400rpm IDE drive costs $92 and for a similar price I can get a 320GB
7,200rpm SATA drive that uses two platters / three heads.

I know, I know. Supply and demand and higher volume of units made means
lower over-all price. However the difference is huge and there are still a
lot of folks using laptops with IDE drives. :-/

If you want an excercise in futility try to find a fast SLC SSD in IDE
format. Some of the later machines that were equipped with an IDE interface
are still extremely capable and in fact run Windows 7 perfectly. These
laptops would benefit from the extra speed of an SSD most yet you can't get
one. The best you can do is try to cobble together an IDE - CF adapter and
find a fast SLC CF card....

Cheers,
--
Shaun.

"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a
monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also
into you." Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche

Somewhere on teh intarwebs PeeCee wrote:
> On 22/04/2011 4:50 p.m., ~misfit~ wrote:
[snip]
>> TIA for any help.
>
> Hi Shaun
>
> Wish you the best of luck.
>
> I did a pile of T,R & X series Thinkpads last year with locked
> motherboards for a colleague. They were 'very' cheap but my colleague
> despite having much better industry contacts than I, hasn't been able
> to source cheap hard drives in the six months since I did the job.

Thanks Paul.

As I feared then. It's so dissapointing to refurbish an older ThinkPad,
or even re-build using parts from various sources only to have it I/O bound
due to running an ~8 y/o 4,200rpm HDD when everything else's been sorted. I
know that dropping a 5,400rpm drive into it would make it much more usable,
not to mention a 7,200rpm drive. However I haven't seen a 7,200rpm IDE HDD
for sale (new) in NZ in the ~four years I've been working on ThinkPads.

I do this as a hobby more than anything. Although I've sold a couple of
ThinkPads I'm certainly not making money out of them that's for sure. It
keeps me occupied and out of the crack houses (<g>) as, now and then, if I
search Trademe dilligently I can find something that will keep me busy for
quite a while at a price I can swing. (If I knew how to unlock them I could
likely do even better! I see the odd one go *very* cheap as it's
locked.) I enjoy working with ThinkPads and learning about them, they're so
well-made and there is plenty of documentation available to help with
dis/assembly.

LOL. I'm getting quite a collection now. I've had folks who know how broke I
am ask why I don't sell (more of) them. They don't seem to understand that,
for the small amount of money I'd get for them compared with the time I've
put into them, plus money for RAM etcetera and the pleasure I get from them,
selling them isn't really an option. Most are what the average l/user would
consider obsolete and therefore I'd not get much for them. I value them much
more highly than the average mook on Trademe.

I hope you're well and healthy mate, best to you and yours.
--
Shaun.

P.S. I don't suppose your mate has a spare working lid, (or just screen and
inverter) for an X31? I have an excellent specimen that lacks both. The CFL
is had it and so's the inverter.

"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a
monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also
into you." Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche

~misfit~ <> wrote:

> Somewhere on teh intarwebs Murray Symon wrote:
> [snip]
> > There is a lot of engineering technology in a hard drive that would
> > set
> > a certain level of "base-line" cost, regardless of speed and capacity.
> > Also, hard drive manufacturing competition is now at an all-time low
> > after the recent acquisition of Samsung's HDD division by Seagate.
> > Now there are only two main suppliers of HDDs: Seagate and Western
> > Digital.
>
> Agreed. However that doesn't explain why a single-platter / two head 80GB
> 5,400rpm IDE drive costs $92 and for a similar price I can get a 320GB
> 7,200rpm SATA drive that uses two platters / three heads.

I can think of three interconnected reasons:

1. Massive difference in economies of scale. SATA drives have been the
standard for laptops for about five years, longer for desktops. The
number of new computers (especially laptops) being sold has been growing
most years, so more and more SATA drives are being sold for new
computers, and for aftermarket sales for recent laptops, and for
external portable hard drives. Older laptops are more likely to wear out
than new ones, so the number of sales of IDE drives as replacements for
old laptops will be shrinking each year.

2. Because of reduced sales, hard drive manufacters stopped doing major
technology development on IDE drives, and most manufacturers stopped
development and/or manufacture completely. SATA drives have continued to
advance, resulting in performance and capacity improvements for SATA
drives while IDE drives are left behind. In effect, the IDE drives are a
design which is several years old.

3. I expect that reduced competition due to fewer manufacturers has
resulted in lack of price pressure on IDE drives, while it is still a
factor for SATA drives.

> I know, I know. Supply and demand and higher volume of units made means
> lower over-all price. However the difference is huge and there are still a
> lot of folks using laptops with IDE drives. :-/

--
David Empson

Somewhere on teh intarwebs David Empson wrote:
> ~misfit~ <> wrote:
>
>> Somewhere on teh intarwebs Murray Symon wrote:
>> [snip]
>>> There is a lot of engineering technology in a hard drive that would
>>> set
>>> a certain level of "base-line" cost, regardless of speed and
>>> capacity. Also, hard drive manufacturing competition is now at an
>>> all-time low after the recent acquisition of Samsung's HDD division
>>> by Seagate. Now there are only two main suppliers of HDDs: Seagate
>>> and Western Digital.
>>
>> Agreed. However that doesn't explain why a single-platter / two head
>> 80GB 5,400rpm IDE drive costs $92 and for a similar price I can get
>> a 320GB 7,200rpm SATA drive that uses two platters / three heads.
>
> I can think of three interconnected reasons:
>
> 1. Massive difference in economies of scale. SATA drives have been the
> standard for laptops for about five years, longer for desktops. The
> number of new computers (especially laptops) being sold has been
> growing most years, so more and more SATA drives are being sold for
> new computers, and for aftermarket sales for recent laptops, and for
> external portable hard drives. Older laptops are more likely to wear
> out than new ones, so the number of sales of IDE drives as
> replacements for old laptops will be shrinking each year.

Yep, that's what I tried to say in the paragraph below.

> 2. Because of reduced sales, hard drive manufacters stopped doing
> major technology development on IDE drives, and most manufacturers
> stopped development and/or manufacture completely. SATA drives have
> continued to advance, resulting in performance and capacity
> improvements for SATA drives while IDE drives are left behind. In
> effect, the IDE drives are a design which is several years old.

Actually there's nothing left to 'develop'. The interface is what it is and
doesn't need to change while the platters don't care if they're in a SATA or
an IDE drive so development in increased aureal density *could* be very
easilly used to benefit IDE drives. Yet it isn't being used, they've
essentially frozen the capacities at what they were when IDE ceased to be
used in new machines. Odd.

> 3. I expect that reduced competition due to fewer manufacturers has
> resulted in lack of price pressure on IDE drives, while it is still a
> factor for SATA drives.

But... How does that work? There are the same number of manufacturers for
both SATA *and* IDE? The two types of drives have probably 80% of components
in common.... <still scratching head over the above>
--
Shaun.

"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a
monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also
into you." Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche

>> I know, I know. Supply and demand and higher volume of units made
>> means lower over-all price. However the difference is huge and there
>> are still a lot of folks using laptops with IDE drives. :-/

~misfit~ <> wrote:

> Somewhere on teh intarwebs David Empson wrote:
> > ~misfit~ <> wrote:
> >
> >> Somewhere on teh intarwebs Murray Symon wrote:
> >> [snip]
> >>> There is a lot of engineering technology in a hard drive that would
> >>> set
> >>> a certain level of "base-line" cost, regardless of speed and
> >>> capacity. Also, hard drive manufacturing competition is now at an
> >>> all-time low after the recent acquisition of Samsung's HDD division
> >>> by Seagate. Now there are only two main suppliers of HDDs: Seagate
> >>> and Western Digital.
> >>
> >> Agreed. However that doesn't explain why a single-platter / two head
> >> 80GB 5,400rpm IDE drive costs $92 and for a similar price I can get
> >> a 320GB 7,200rpm SATA drive that uses two platters / three heads.
> >
> > I can think of three interconnected reasons:
> >
> > 1. Massive difference in economies of scale. SATA drives have been the
> > standard for laptops for about five years, longer for desktops. The
> > number of new computers (especially laptops) being sold has been
> > growing most years, so more and more SATA drives are being sold for
> > new computers, and for aftermarket sales for recent laptops, and for
> > external portable hard drives. Older laptops are more likely to wear
> > out than new ones, so the number of sales of IDE drives as
> > replacements for old laptops will be shrinking each year.
>
> Yep, that's what I tried to say in the paragraph below.
>
> > 2. Because of reduced sales, hard drive manufacters stopped doing
> > major technology development on IDE drives, and most manufacturers
> > stopped development and/or manufacture completely. SATA drives have
> > continued to advance, resulting in performance and capacity
> > improvements for SATA drives while IDE drives are left behind. In
> > effect, the IDE drives are a design which is several years old.
>
> Actually there's nothing left to 'develop'. The interface is what it is and
> doesn't need to change while the platters don't care if they're in a SATA or
> an IDE drive so development in increased aureal density *could* be very
> easilly used to benefit IDE drives. Yet it isn't being used, they've
> essentially frozen the capacities at what they were when IDE ceased to be
> used in new machines. Odd.

The interface between the controller board and the drive electronics
could be changing over the years in some way (I have no idea), and at a
minimum the cache and other architecture on the controllers would have
been developed further with SATA than with IDE. Whatever the reason, the
manufacturers aren't interesting in selling drives with new mechanisms
and old controllers.

> > 3. I expect that reduced competition due to fewer manufacturers has
> > resulted in lack of price pressure on IDE drives, while it is still a
> > factor for SATA drives.
>
> But... How does that work? There are the same number of manufacturers for
> both SATA *and* IDE? The two types of drives have probably 80% of components
> in common.... <still scratching head over the above>

Seagate announced several years ago that they weren't making IDE drives
any more, and they stopped being available once remaining stocks were
exhausted.

As far as I can see from what is available new in New Zealand, everyone
apart from Western Digital followed suit, but I haven't checked overseas
sources to confirm whether that is just NZ-specific. Somewhat of a moot
point now that Seagate and WD have bought out all the other
manufacturers.

--
David Empson

Somewhere on teh intarwebs David Empson wrote:
> ~misfit~ <> wrote:
[snip]
>> Actually there's nothing left to 'develop'. The interface is what it
>> is and doesn't need to change while the platters don't care if
>> they're in a SATA or an IDE drive so development in increased aureal
>> density *could* be very easilly used to benefit IDE drives. Yet it
>> isn't being used, they've essentially frozen the capacities at what
>> they were when IDE ceased to be used in new machines. Odd.
>
> The interface between the controller board and the drive electronics
> could be changing over the years in some way (I have no idea), and at
> a minimum the cache and other architecture on the controllers would
> have been developed further with SATA than with IDE. Whatever the
> reason, the manufacturers aren't interesting in selling drives with
> new mechanisms and old controllers.

The reason isn't that it can't be done easily and cheaply. 'Bridge chips'
are common (see: http://www.siliconimage.com/products...ct.aspx?pid=79 ).
Ok, that one goes the other way but it has an "on-board
serializer/deserializer" and is about the size of my little finger nail.

Ok, it might not handle 'Advanced Format' drives but WD and Seagate both
make 'normal', 512 bytes-per-sector HDDs with capacities up to 500GB and
spindle-speeds of 7,200rpm in their SATA flavours.

>>> 3. I expect that reduced competition due to fewer manufacturers has
>>> resulted in lack of price pressure on IDE drives, while it is still
>>> a factor for SATA drives.
>>
>> But... How does that work? There are the same number of
>> manufacturers for both SATA *and* IDE? The two types of drives have
>> probably 80% of components in common.... <still scratching head over
>> the above>
>
> Seagate announced several years ago that they weren't making IDE
> drives any more, and they stopped being available once remaining
> stocks were exhausted.

Ok, that's one announcement that I missed.

> As far as I can see from what is available new in New Zealand,
> everyone apart from Western Digital followed suit, but I haven't
> checked overseas sources to confirm whether that is just NZ-specific.

I just had a look at Newegg, TigerDirect and a few others and it seems that
in the US there are WD and a few odd-balls like Apricorn, CMS Products and
Panasonic as well as what I guess is old stock, a few Toshibas and Samsungs.

Not only that but there is just the one line of WD, 'Scorpio Blue', with
just five models ranging from 80GB to 320GB (80, 120, 160, 250 and 320. It
seems that the 120GB version isn't available in NZ). They are all 5,400rpm
and have 8MB of cache. I really didn't think that IDE laptop drives would
come to this so fast. No more fast 7,200rpm drives, nothing bigger than
320GB.....

Is it just me or did that happen indecently quickly? After all it was only
five years ago that SATA drives were quite new and a lot of laptops for sale
were still fitted with IDE drives.

> Somewhat of a moot point now that Seagate and WD have bought out all
> the other manufacturers.

True. I don't have a good feeling about this having happened either. Too
easy to 'price-fix' and in this economy, where are we if one of them goes
under? The whole computer industry at the mercy of a single HDD supplier?
Scary thought.
--
Shaun.

"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a
monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also
into you." Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche

Somewhere on teh intarwebs ~misfit~ wrote:
[snip]
> Not only that but there is just the one line of WD, 'Scorpio Blue',
> with just five models ranging from 80GB to 320GB (80, 120, 160, 250
> and 320. It seems that the 120GB version isn't available in NZ). They
> are all 5,400rpm and have 8MB of cache. I really didn't think that
> IDE laptop drives would come to this so fast. No more fast 7,200rpm
> drives, nothing bigger than 320GB.....

Damn! Replying to myself now! Senility sucks.

I meant to mention that the only hope for people such as myself who want to
keep older hardware, not only running but running as well as it can might be
to wait (and wait and wait). One day mSATA SSDs[*] should be affordable and
someone's bound to make an IDE adapter. Right? Right? Awwww, c'mon!
[*]
http://www.anandtech.com/show/4078/i...ta-form-factor
--
Shaun.

"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a
monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also
into you." Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche

On Apr 25, 1:46*pm, "~misfit~" <sore_n_ha...@nospamyahoo.com.au>
wrote:
> Somewhere on teh intarwebs David Empson wrote:

> > Somewhat of a moot point now that Seagate and WD have bought out all
> > the other manufacturers.
>
> True. I don't have a good feeling about this having happened either. Too
> easy to 'price-fix' and in this economy, where are we if one of them goes
> under? The whole computer industry at the mercy of a single HDD supplier?
> Scary thought.

Not really, the important thing to look at now is how many companies
are manufacturing Solid State disks, and thankfully there are quite a
few.
The mechanical hard disk has entered its (gradual?) slide towards
being a intriguing antiquity for the next generation.

How long do you think it'll be before a 1TB usb3 (or 4?) flash drive
costs the same as a 5 pack of blank bluray discs does now? i give it 4
years.

Somewhere on teh intarwebs Squiggle wrote:
> On Apr 25, 1:46 pm, "~misfit~" <sore_n_ha...@nospamyahoo.com.au>
> wrote:
>> Somewhere on teh intarwebs David Empson wrote:
>
>>> Somewhat of a moot point now that Seagate and WD have bought out all
>>> the other manufacturers.
>>
>> True. I don't have a good feeling about this having happened either.
>> Too easy to 'price-fix' and in this economy, where are we if one of
>> them goes under? The whole computer industry at the mercy of a
>> single HDD supplier? Scary thought.
>
> Not really, the important thing to look at now is how many companies
> are manufacturing Solid State disks, and thankfully there are quite a
> few.

True. However 90% of them are using sandforce controllers.

> The mechanical hard disk has entered its (gradual?) slide towards
> being a intriguing antiquity for the next generation.

One industry analyst who's column I read seemed to think that they'd be
around for at least another decade, probably two or three. He reckons that
SLC NAND will never be cheap enough to compete with mechanical storage and
that MLC NAND will always be second-rate. <shrug> He was of the opinion that
hybrid disks will become more common. Like Seagate's XT only with more NAND
and having essentially two 'partitions'. One being the fast (but still
expensive) SLC NAND, for OS and programmes which benefit most from fast
access times and the other, much larger partition being mechanical for data
storage (and to hold a backup of the NAND).

> How long do you think it'll be before a 1TB usb3 (or 4?) flash drive
> costs the same as a 5 pack of blank bluray discs does now? i give it 4
> years.

I don't know how much a 5-pack of blu-ray discs cost.... However I do think
that you're being optimistic. Hey, hopefully not.
--
Shaun.

"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a
monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also
into you." Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche