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Fuji's X100; at best, a fixed-lens ornament?

 
 
PeterN
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      02-20-2011
On 2/20/2011 6:42 PM, Alan Browne wrote:
> On 2011.02.20 18:11 , Robert Coe wrote:
>> On Sun, 20 Feb 2011 09:44:05 -0500, Alan Browne
>> <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>> : On 2011.02.20 1:54 , Jeff R. wrote:
>> :
>> :> The latest Leica comes close at 10x the price.
>> :
>> : In the end the biggest failure of the Fuji X100 will be that it does
>> not
>> : have a small number of FFL lenses and/or 1 or 2 really well designed
>> zooms.
>> :
>> : And none of that would add clutter to what seems to be a "classically"
>> : good control layout.
>> :
>> : As a single, non zooming lens camera, it will have limited appeal.
>> :
>> : It would do wonders for ones composition skills - much like the hoary
>> : old advice to learn with a 50mm lens.
>>
>> I guess I don't agree with that hoary old advice, which seems to
>> advocate an
>> absurdly slow way to learn the skill. I think the two best aids to
>> learning
>> composition are a wide-range zoom lens and a photo editor with a good
>> cropping
>> tool.

>
> The old advice was good in the film days when there was no immediate
> feedback to the learning photographer, so he had to focus on artistic as
> well as technical issues for every shot. Limiting to a general focal
> length was a good way to reduce the variables.
>
> Since digital cameras have come along, people learn from their
> compositions within seconds of taking the shot - not to mention exposure
> issues and so on. So adding variables (zoom) does not matter as much.
><snip>


Err! Some people never learn.

--
Peter
 
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dj_nme
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      02-21-2011
On 21/02/2011 10:46 AM, PeterN wrote:
<snip>
>> <snip>

>
> Err! Some people never learn.


That you snip and then leave a non-sequitor reply?
Or, some other pearl of wisdom which you're hiding?

please explain.
 
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Robert Coe
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      02-21-2011
On Sun, 20 Feb 2011 15:34:55 -0800 (PST), BmEcksNZ <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
:
: > :
: > : It would do wonders for ones composition skills - much like the hoary
: > : old advice to learn with a 50mm lens.
: >
: > I guess I don't agree with that hoary old advice, which seems to
: > advocate an absurdly slow way to learn the skill. I think the two
: > best aids to learning composition are a wide-range zoom lens and
: > a photo editor with a good cropping tool.
: >
: > Bob
:
: Ergo, just get a fixed lens like to X100, and learn to crop before
: pressing the trigger, save yourself the bother of getting the bulky
: and slow wide range zoom lens with all its compromises.
:
: However did you cope before photoshop??

Funny you should ask. I have never used Photoshop.

Bob
 
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Robert Coe
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      02-21-2011
On Sun, 20 Feb 2011 18:42:51 -0500, Alan Browne
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
: On 2011.02.20 18:11 , Robert Coe wrote:
: > On Sun, 20 Feb 2011 09:44:05 -0500, Alan Browne
: > <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
: > : On 2011.02.20 1:54 , Jeff R. wrote:
: > :
: > :> The latest Leica comes close at 10x the price.
: > :
: > : In the end the biggest failure of the Fuji X100 will be that it does not
: > : have a small number of FFL lenses and/or 1 or 2 really well designed zooms.
: > :
: > : And none of that would add clutter to what seems to be a "classically"
: > : good control layout.
: > :
: > : As a single, non zooming lens camera, it will have limited appeal.
: > :
: > : It would do wonders for ones composition skills - much like the hoary
: > : old advice to learn with a 50mm lens.
: >
: > I guess I don't agree with that hoary old advice, which seems to advocate an
: > absurdly slow way to learn the skill. I think the two best aids to learning
: > composition are a wide-range zoom lens and a photo editor with a good cropping
: > tool.
:
: The old advice was good in the film days when there was no immediate
: feedback to the learning photographer, so he had to focus on artistic as
: well as technical issues for every shot. Limiting to a general focal
: length was a good way to reduce the variables.

To me, it's like learning to play the recorder if your objective is to learn
the flute. It can't do any harm, but it doesn't advance the ball very much.

: Since digital cameras have come along, people learn from their
: compositions within seconds of taking the shot - not to mention exposure
: issues and so on. So adding variables (zoom) does not matter as much.
:
: As to zoom, one should avoid zooms with more than 3:1 zoom ratio. At
: that point the compromises begin to show in the image quality somewhere
: in the zoom range, not to mention being constrained to smaller apertures
: and variable max aperture lenses.

I wasn't shilling for high-ratio zooms. My point was simply that it's a fine
device to have available if you want to learn composition in a hurry. It's a
dynamic, on-the-spot cropping tool, and a lot of composition is knowing how to
crop effectively.

Actually, the highest-ratio zoom I ever owned was a 28-135 that came with my
50D. I didn't need it, so I gave it to my wife.

Bob
 
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Bruce
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      02-21-2011
Paul Furman <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>Bruce wrote:
>> Paul Furman<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>> $2000
>>> http://www.digitaltrends.com/photogr...nder-are-here/
>>>
>>> I love the idea but not at that price!
>>> http://www.onecall.com/product/Fuji/...era/_/R-109596

>>
>>
>> I don't know where you get $2000 from, Paul. The article and the
>> advert both quote a price of $1199.95.
>>
>> Cameras and lenses usually cost more in the UK than in the USA, but
>> after allowing for the UK's new VAT rate of 20% (up from 17.5% last
>> month) the camera is only about 6% more expensive here (GBP 899.00
>> including 20% VAT). By the time you pay a typical rate of sales tax
>> on the US price, that makes the US and UK prices almost equal.
>>
>> I haven't tried one yet but apparently we sold three yesterday to
>> customers who had pre-ordered them. We won't be trying one ourselves
>> until all the pre-orders have been satisfied. At the predicted rate
>> of delivery, that will be about 5-6 weeks from now.

>
>Doh! (cross-eyed brain freeze on the price)
>
>I would still be much more interested at a lower price but yeah, that's
>a lot less than a Leica and sounds very handy. The fixed lens doesn't
>bother me at all, I agree about fewer factors helping composition. You
>just learn to see better, where zoom can lead you to zoom in on some
>preconceived notion without really paying attention to the whole scene
>you saw before lifting the camera up. I know it sounds like hogwash but
>it's true. It's a lot easier to learn to draw with just a black charcoal
>vs starting with a copy of photoshop and adobe illustrator. Frankly, few
>can really do anything good with that many tools and many won't ever
>want all that.



Absolutely right. Unfortunately, there is an obsession with features,
and that means that most people posting here will demand a zoom lens
.... with at least enough zoom range to ensure that its optical
performance is severely blunted.


>I also like the manual dials and no top LCD. Just set them where you
>want and know where they are... I get annoyed having to remember to push
>some button to even see where ISO and exposure comp are at any given
>time. I'm not clear how shutter speed works though - how do you set
>shutter speed?



I don't know, sorry.

It will be several weeks before I get my hands on one.

 
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Bruce
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      02-21-2011
BmEcksNZ <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>
>> :
>> : It would do wonders for ones composition skills - much like the hoary
>> : old advice to learn with a 50mm lens.
>>
>> I guess I don't agree with that hoary old advice, which seems to advocate an
>> absurdly slow way to learn the skill. I think the two best aids to learning
>> composition are a wide-range zoom lens and a photo editor with a good cropping
>> tool.
>>
>> Bob

>
>Ergo, just get a fixed lens like to X100, and learn to crop before
>pressing the trigger, save yourself the bother of getting the bulky
>and slow wide range zoom lens with all its compromises.
>
>However did you cope before photoshop??



That's dangerous talk ...

.... especially on newsgroups where most people posting seem to buy a
DSLR that takes interchangeable lenses, then spend months finding just
one "walkaround" lens with a huge zoom range that ensures they will
never again have to change lenses. This also ensures their images
will never be sharp unless they are shot at f/8 or f/11.

But who cares? Because no-one ever prints their images. They just
look at their 12 MP masterpieces on LCD monitors that can only display
1 or 2 MP.


 
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Whisky-dave
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Posts: n/a
 
      02-21-2011
On Feb 20, 11:44*pm, PeterN <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> On 2/20/2011 6:34 PM, BmEcksNZ wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> >> :
> >> : It would do wonders for ones composition skills - much like the hoary
> >> : old advice to learn with a 50mm lens.

>
> >> I guess I don't agree with that hoary old advice, which seems to advocate an
> >> absurdly slow way to learn the skill. I think the two best aids to learning
> >> composition are a wide-range zoom lens and a photo editor with a good cropping
> >> tool.

>
> >> Bob

>
> > Ergo, just get a fixed lens like to X100, and learn to crop before
> > pressing the trigger, save yourself the bother of getting the bulky
> > and slow wide range zoom lens with all its compromises.

>
> > However did you cope before photoshop??

>
> I had an amazing device called an "enlarger." I inserted another thing
> called "film" on a stage with a cropping mask into the enlarger. I then
> turned it on and presto!


Funny you should say that as I was just thinking that I used to have a
guillotine for cropping
before photoshop came along, before that I used scissors or a Stanley
knife and a ruler.
I have a vague memory of using a glazer before high glossy paper was
affordable.



 
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Robert Coe
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      02-21-2011
On Mon, 21 Feb 2011 06:31:22 -0800, Savageduck
<savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
: On 2011-02-20 20:53:02 -0800, Paul Furman <(E-Mail Removed)> said:
:
: > Bruce wrote:
: >> Paul Furman<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
: >>> $2000
: >>> http://www.digitaltrends.com/photogr...nder-are-here/
:
: I
: >>>
: >>> love the idea but not at that price!
: >>> http://www.onecall.com/product/Fuji/...era/_/R-109596
: >>
: >>
: >> I don't know where you get $2000 from, Paul. The article and the
: >> advert both quote a price of $1199.95.
: >>
: >> Cameras and lenses usually cost more in the UK than in the USA, but
: >> after allowing for the UK's new VAT rate of 20% (up from 17.5% last
: >> month) the camera is only about 6% more expensive here (GBP 899.00
: >> including 20% VAT). By the time you pay a typical rate of sales tax
: >> on the US price, that makes the US and UK prices almost equal.
: >>
: >> I haven't tried one yet but apparently we sold three yesterday to
: >> customers who had pre-ordered them. We won't be trying one ourselves
: >> until all the pre-orders have been satisfied. At the predicted rate
: >> of delivery, that will be about 5-6 weeks from now.
: >
: > Doh! (cross-eyed brain freeze on the price)
: >
: > I would still be much more interested at a lower price but yeah, that's
: > a lot less than a Leica and sounds very handy. The fixed lens doesn't
: > bother me at all, I agree about fewer factors helping composition. You
: > just learn to see better, where zoom can lead you to zoom in on some
: > preconceived notion without really paying attention to the whole scene
: > you saw before lifting the camera up. I know it sounds like hogwash but
: > it's true. It's a lot easier to learn to draw with just a black
: > charcoal vs starting with a copy of photoshop and adobe illustrator.
: > Frankly, few can really do anything good with that many tools and many
: > won't ever want all that.
: >
: > I also like the manual dials and no top LCD. Just set them where you
: > want and know where they are... I get annoyed having to remember to
: > push some button to even see where ISO and exposure comp are at any
: > given time. I'm not clear how shutter speed works though - how do you
: > set shutter speed?
:
: Just examining the photographs and video on the Fujifilm site, one of
: the top dials is a dedicated shutter speed selector. The other top dial
: is for exposure compensation from "B" to 4000. Aperture is traditional
: on the lens.
: The lever on the front is the "Viewfinder selector".
: It seems to me that the great part of having the hybrid OVF/EVF, is the
: ability to do away with parallax issues if they ever move to an
: interchangeable lens system in the future.

Is the "fixed" lens already removable? If not, it's hard to see how any
features of the current camera are relevant to a future move to an
interchangeable lens system.

Bob
 
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Bruce
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      02-21-2011
Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>Just examining the photographs and video on the Fujifilm site, one of
>the top dials is a dedicated shutter speed selector. The other top dial
>is for exposure compensation from "B" to 4000. Aperture is traditional
>on the lens.
>The lever on the front is the "Viewfinder selector".
>It seems to me that the great part of having the hybrid OVF/EVF, is the
>ability to do away with parallax issues if they ever move to an
>interchangeable lens system in the future.



Mechanical correction of parallax has been around for decades. While
the high-priced Leica rangefinders had it, they didn't have a monopoly
on that feature. Several Japanese-made 35mm rangefinder cameras also
had it, including some that sold at a small fraction of then-current
Leica prices.

Kyocera Yashica used a complex and more expensive solution in the
Contax G series of autofocus p+s 35mm film cameras. An LCD was placed
in the viewfinder optics and progressively opened up the view on one
side while closing it down on the other using opaque strips that could
be turned on and off. It worked well enough, but it probably made the
cameras more expensive than they needed to be.

Back to the X100. There is a direct comparison between this camera
and the Konica Hexar AF 35mm film compact camera which had a very high
quality fixed 35mm f/2 lens. The Hexar AF was a low production camera
that was intended to test the market for a more expensive camera that
would accept interchangeable lenses.

History tells us that the Hexar AF sold many times more copies than
expected. The success of the camera encouraged Konica to develop the
Hexar RF which had a KM bayonet mount that was compatible with Leica M
mount lenses. It sold well. Alas, it became a casualty of the failed
merger of Konica and Minolta.

[Had the parlous state of Minolta's camera business been apparent,
Konica would have run a mile rather than merge. But I digress.]

So Konica's success with the Hexar RF led to a version that took
interchangeable lenses. If Fuji succeeds with the X100, expect a
second model before too long, one that will also take interchangeable
lenses.

An interesting thought ... the Contax G1 and G2, the Konica Hexar AF
and RF, the Fuji TX-1 and TX-2 (a.k.a. Hasselblad X-Pan and X=Pan II)
were all manufactured by the same contractor. I am told that the Fuji
X100 is also manufactured by the same contractor ...

 
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Bruce
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      02-21-2011
Robert Coe <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>Is the "fixed" lens already removable?



No. They call it "fixed" because it is. Fixed.

 
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