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On 05-01-2011 23:39, Thai wrote:
> I haven't done any my computer skills are limited to Web Design,
> Graphics design, some Dos scripting some very low level python. I've
> done some simple work with hardware I'm pretty web adept but I've
> never done any programming. I was going to start working with Python
> but when I asked about development on the Android Developers group
> the response I got back said to try Java. Any help suggestions for
> someone starting unsure if Java or Python should be my path or if
> tackling both is a good/bad idea Or even suggestions for starting out
> programming.

If you want to program Android, then you should pick Java.

Start by learning general Java.

Buy a Java book and/or read the SUN/Oracle Java tutorial.

Then go to Android.

Again buy a book and/or use the material on the internet.

Arne

On Wed, 5 Jan 2011 20:39:45 -0800 (PST), Thai <>
wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said :

>I was going to start working with Python but when I asked about development=
> on the Android Developers group the response I got back said to try Java. =
>Any help suggestions for someone starting unsure if Java or Python should b=
>e my path or if tackling both is a good/bad idea Or even suggestions for st=
>arting out programming.

Java is more strict. It will teach you better habits and it will be
easier to figure out why your programs are not working. Python is a
sort of sloppy shorthand for quick and dirty rapid prototype
programming. That is an exaggeration, but I do that to make the
difference clear.

--
Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products
http://mindprod.com
To err is human, but to really foul things up requires a computer.
~ Farmer's Almanac
It is breathtaking how a misplaced comma in a computer program can
shred megabytes of data in seconds.

On 07-01-2011 08:35, Roedy Green wrote:
> On Wed, 5 Jan 2011 20:39:45 -0800 (PST), Thai<>
> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said :
>> I was going to start working with Python but when I asked about development=
>> on the Android Developers group the response I got back said to try Java. =
>> Any help suggestions for someone starting unsure if Java or Python should b=
>> e my path or if tackling both is a good/bad idea Or even suggestions for st=
>> arting out programming.
>
> Java is more strict. It will teach you better habits and it will be
> easier to figure out why your programs are not working. Python is a
> sort of sloppy shorthand for quick and dirty rapid prototype
> programming. That is an exaggeration, but I do that to make the
> difference clear.

Python as being useful for prototyping is one of those
myths that seems very persistent among programmers that
do not program in Python.

I don't think I have ever seen it used that way in real
life.

There is among other a small web site known as Youtube
that is based on Python.

Arne

On 07-01-2011 03:01, Chris Uppal wrote:
> Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>> http://the-programmers-stone.com/the-original-talks/ Follow the original
>>> talks on the right-hand side. I don't consider his point of view
>>> "ideal", but it will help you learn how to re-see the world.
>>
>> If he want to learn Java, then he should read something about Java.
>
> As well. Not "instead".

Unless the person is very academic, then I believe that
it would be best to actual start learning Java before
diving into the more philosophical views on programming.

Arne

On 01/07/2011 08:26 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> Python as being useful for prototyping is one of those
> myths that seems very persistent among programmers that
> do not program in Python.

Python is indeed useful for prototyping, but that does not imply that it
not also useful for more powerful things.

Having done a great deal of work in Python, I find it is most useful for
smaller applications or scripts (and this includes web applications).

--
Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not
tried it. -- Donald E. Knuth

On 07/01/2011 5:27 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 07-01-2011 03:01, Chris Uppal wrote:
>> Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>> http://the-programmers-stone.com/the-original-talks/ Follow the
>>>> original
>>>> talks on the right-hand side. I don't consider his point of view
>>>> "ideal", but it will help you learn how to re-see the world.
>>>
>>> If he want to learn Java, then he should read something about Java.
>>
>> As well. Not "instead".
>
> Unless the person is very academic, then I believe that
> it would be best to actual start learning Java before
> diving into the more philosophical views on programming.

Then he will FAIL and become frustrated and give up. I've seen this
with my own two-eyes, Arne. Some people have a "natural" aptitude to
code, but most ordinary people do not, grow frustrated and give up.
Part of my day job is to help these people cross that threshold.

Much like art and music, it's an aptitude that has to be cultivated, and
the first step is to change the way you view the world. And actually,
it doesn't take that long. Or at least that long to read what you need
to know to begin reshaping the way you think.

I believe it is a myth that people are "natural born programmers". I
believe you can teach people to "see" how to solve a problem by
programming just as one can teach ordinary people to draw (Example:
"Drawing with the Right Side of the Brain") and play music.

I agree with you that Python is not a prototyping language -- it is a
full & proper language. But it has a low barrier to entry, you can make
good, useful programs from the get go, and the habits and "seeing" you
learn in Python is universal, IMHO.

Java is nice, but it's kind of like a programming language designed by
lawyers. There is a steeper learning curve before you can become
productive in Java because you have to know a whole lot of stuff before
you actually start learning Java. Just as there's a whole body of law
you need to learn before you can properly interpret the law.

On 11-01-08 07:15 AM, Chris Uppal wrote:
> Travers Naran wrote:
>
>> Java is nice, but it's kind of like a programming language designed by
>> lawyers. There is a steeper learning curve before you can become
>> productive in Java because you have to know a whole lot of stuff before
>> you actually start learning Java.
>
> It's not only that, but there are a whole load of hoops you have to jump
> through to get anything done in Java. They may make sense to more experienced
> programmers, who have the background to see /why/ the hoops are there (what
> mistakes they are saving you from, what benefits they bring), but if you are
> new to programming, then they are just extra "magic incantations" that you have
> to learn.
>
> Python is reasonably clean (unlike some popular dynamic languages), and
> reasonably free from "hoops"; as such I can see good reasons to start with
> Python if the aim is to become (or at least to make a start at becoming) a
> /programmer/. Java looks like a poor place to start in comparison.
>
> Of course, if the aim is to become a /Java programmer/ -- a much more
> restricted, but much more targeted ambition -- then one can make a
> correspondingly stronger case for starting with Java. Whether the benefits of
> starting where you mean to end up overweigh the downsides of having to deal
> with the mess from day one is open (at least, /I/ don't know of a killer
> argument on either side).
>
> -- chris

I generally agree with both you and Travers. I'll add this - Travers
mentioned "natural born programmers". There certainly _are_ a fair few
people with natural aptitude for programming, although they are a
minority of the population. Some have moderate aptitude, some great.
It's not related directly to IQ but to some creative variant of
problem-solving intelligence, I think, but I'm not getting into
that...what matters is that (1) many people don't get it at all, (2) a
few get it completely and quickly, and (3) some get it slowly but
adequately.

I surmise that with group #1 it doesn't matter anyway (and never will),
and with group #2 it doesn't matter much either. It's with group #3 -
the majority of working programmers - that it does make a difference
which language gets chosen first. And then arguments such as those
presented both of you come into play.

Personally, if I were teaching a novice with some promise, I'd pick
Python over Java as a starter language. IMO the ability of a person to
pick up adequate coding skills in at least 2 languages, within 6 months,
from a standing start, is an indicator of their future success. I get
worried about people who feel the need to start with Java because (1)
that's their target professional programming language, and (2) they
don't think they can handle more.

AHS

On 08-01-2011 00:09, Joshua Cranmer wrote:
> On 01/07/2011 08:26 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> Python as being useful for prototyping is one of those
>> myths that seems very persistent among programmers that
>> do not program in Python.
>
> Python is indeed useful for prototyping, but that does not imply that it
> not also useful for more powerful things.
>
> Having done a great deal of work in Python, I find it is most useful for
> smaller applications or scripts (and this includes web applications).

I have seen it used for both scripts and web apps.

But I don't think I have ever seen it used for prototyping.

Arne

On 08-01-2011 08:53, Arved Sandstrom wrote:
> Personally, if I were teaching a novice with some promise, I'd pick
> Python over Java as a starter language.

It will enable them to focus more on programming logic
than on data types and various rules for those.

But it is a double edged sword. They may be up for a pretty
bad experience when they move to a more strict language.

> IMO the ability of a person to
> pick up adequate coding skills in at least 2 languages, within 6 months,
> from a standing start, is an indicator of their future success.

6 months is not much for learning programming.

> I get
> worried about people who feel the need to start with Java because (1)
> that's their target professional programming language, and (2) they
> don't think they can handle more.

If the driver for learning programming is a wish to program
their Android phone, then there are some logic in starting
with Java.

Arne

On 08-01-2011 03:20, Travers Naran wrote:
> On 07/01/2011 5:27 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 07-01-2011 03:01, Chris Uppal wrote:
>>> Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>>> http://the-programmers-stone.com/the-original-talks/ Follow the
>>>>> original
>>>>> talks on the right-hand side. I don't consider his point of view
>>>>> "ideal", but it will help you learn how to re-see the world.
>>>>
>>>> If he want to learn Java, then he should read something about Java.
>>>
>>> As well. Not "instead".
>>
>> Unless the person is very academic, then I believe that
>> it would be best to actual start learning Java before
>> diving into the more philosophical views on programming.
>
> Then he will FAIL and become frustrated and give up. I've seen this with
> my own two-eyes, Arne. Some people have a "natural" aptitude to code,
> but most ordinary people do not, grow frustrated and give up. Part of my
> day job is to help these people cross that threshold.

Most people actually learn programming by learning programming
not about what programming is.

So your claim that they will fail is observable false.

> Much like art and music, it's an aptitude that has to be cultivated, and
> the first step is to change the way you view the world. And actually, it
> doesn't take that long. Or at least that long to read what you need to
> know to begin reshaping the way you think.

That is not what young people interested in programming
want to learn.

Arne