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Tkinter: The good, the bad, and the ugly!

 
 
rantingrick
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      01-17-2011
On Jan 17, 1:26*pm, Adam Skutt <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> On Jan 17, 11:01*am, Steven D'Aprano <steve


> > Nevertheless, you can do good, useful work
> > with only a minimal widget set. Back when dinosaurs walked the earth,


[...snip...]

> And when a time machine warps all back to the 1980s, that argument
> might have some merit. *Since you're not Dr. Emmett Brown, I suggest
> you refrain from making arguments that predicate themselves on time
> travel.


You know Adam some people could use that very same sarcastic argument
against you for claiming that Tkinter is "just as good" or *giggles*
"better" than wxPython.

 
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Octavian Rasnita
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      01-17-2011
From: "rantingrick" <(E-Mail Removed)>
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2011 8:53 PM
Subject: Re: Tkinter: The good, the bad, and the ugly!


On Jan 17, 12:27 pm, "Octavian Rasnita" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> And Python should also not include any editor because for
> some programmers it is absolutely useless anyway. The
> editor can be installed separately very easy and the
> programmers can choose the editor they like. The problem
> is not that WxPython is not encouraged, but that Tkinter
> is encouraged because it is promoted.


These are very true statements Octavian! I had always believed that
Python should include a GUI AND and IDE even though Tkinter and IDLE
are severely dated. Now i am thinking that maybe we should judt dump
both and leave it that way.

Why did i previously think this way? Well my concern was to keep the
goals of GvR alive. That is that programming should be for everyone
and having a simplistic IDE and GUI in the stdlib help foster these
goals. However that was circa 1980's and we now find our selfs a
decade past the 21st century. We now have a huge amount of 3rd party
GUI's and IDE's. Do we even need to include them any more? Sure one
could always argue batteries included however with the plethera of 3rd
party downloads, the batteries may not be included, but they are
located witin reach at the reqister check out

Q. Do we need ANY GUI or ANY IDE in the stdlib anymore?

I say probably not considering the availability of 3rd party
downloads. What say you, Python community?



And one more thing. Not all the Python programmers create desktop apps so a GUI lib is useless. Some of them use Python only for web programming or only for system administration.

Octavian


 
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Octavian Rasnita
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      01-17-2011
From: "Adam Skutt" <(E-Mail Removed)>
Subject: Re: Tkinter: The good, the bad, and the ugly!


On Jan 17, 11:01 am, Steven D'Aprano <steve
(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
> I'm afraid that's precisely what I'm arguing you *can't* do -- there's
> nothing reasonable about equating the standard library with the language.
> Some languages don't even have a standard library, or for that matter a
> standard implementation.


And we're not discussing those languages, we're discussing Python,
which has an explicit policy of "batteries included". As such,
criticism of the standard library is perfectly acceptable under the
name "Python", whether you like it or not. Besides, it's inevitable
anyway.



"Batteries included"?

Python doesn't follow this policy at all. We can say that maybe PHP follows it, but not Python.

And if this is the wanted policy, why should it be "cheap batteries included" and not "strong batteries included"?

Octavian

 
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Martin P. Hellwig
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      01-17-2011
On 01/17/11 19:39, rantingrick wrote:
<cut<
> Q: If you could replace Tkinter with any module/library (THAT IS NOT A
> GUI OR IDE!!) what would you like to see fill its place?

<cut>

Some systems, like FreeBSD have Tkinter and IDLE as a separate package
which is not installed by default. Purely because those systems don't
assume that the user has X installed.

Though since this is a windows world, that argument is rather mood.
But then again the win32 extension modules aren't installed by default,
rather inconsistent in that perspective.

You could argue that there is some advantage especially for starters,
having at least something to start on (IDLE), but on the other hand
there are already a couple of special 'distribution packages' that aim
to include anything remotely python related.

I think that the ones that should make these decisions (if any) are
those how spend _their_ time integrating the dependencies and making the
builds for public download.

Perhaps for pythons 3 lifetime there should still be a 'python'
maintained tkinter integration. But I don't see any reason why this
should be continued for 4, fortunately it is not my call and I actually
quite like Tkinter.

--
mph
 
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Adam Skutt
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      01-17-2011
On Jan 17, 3:08*pm, "Octavian Rasnita" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>> From: "Adam Skutt" <(E-Mail Removed)>
>> And we're not discussing those languages, we're discussing Python,
>> which has an explicit policy of "batteries included". *As such,
>> criticism of the standard library is perfectly acceptable under the
>> name "Python", whether you like it or not. *Besides, it's inevitable
>> anyway.

>
> "Batteries included"?
>
> Python doesn't follow this policy at all. We can say that maybe PHP follows it, but not Python.
>


http://lmgtfy.com/?q=python+%22batte...ncluded%22&l=1

> And if this is the wanted policy, why should it be "cheap batteries included" and not "strong batteries included"?


You'd have this same argument regardless of GUI toolkit you end up
picking, or even if you choose to not include one at all. This would
be because none of them are universal solutions, all of them have
deficiencies (actual or perceived) that make them unsuitable for
certain applications.

Adam
 
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Alexander Kapps
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      01-17-2011
On 17.01.2011 21:04, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
> I say probably not considering the availability of 3rd party
> downloads. What say you, Python community?


Available as 3rd party downloads:

XML,HTML,...
HTTP,FTP,SMTP,POP,IMAP/...
MD5,SHA,...
zip,bzip,...

and so on and so on and so on.

Remove them all just because they are available as 3rd party downloads?

The "Batteries included" of Python is just *great* and I vote for
*more* not less batteries!

> And one more thing. Not all the Python programmers create desktop apps so a GUI lib is useless. Some of them use Python only for web programming or only for system administration.


Not all Python programmers do web programming, so please remove the
useless HTML junk too.


Almost every beginner wants to do GUIs or at least some graphic
stuff. Removing the GUI module from the stdlib would be plain wrong
IMHO. But I don't understand the whole issue anyway. It isn't that
you need to fire up your torrent client and wait 48 hours for the
Python download to complete. Why remove useful (to many, not most)
stuff from the lib?
 
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rantingrick
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      01-17-2011
On Jan 17, 2:09*pm, "Martin P. Hellwig" <(E-Mail Removed)>
wrote:

> fortunately it is not my call and I actually
> quite like Tkinter.



Are you sure about that Martin? ))

> From: "Martin P. Hellwig" <(E-Mail Removed)>
> Newsgroups: comp.lang.python
> Subject: Re: GUIs - A Modest Proposal
> Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 07:10:35 +0100

[...snip...]
> Though I don't like tkinter either, but I don't seem to hate it as
> much as others do.


hmm?
 
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Martin P. Hellwig
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      01-17-2011
On 01/17/11 22:00, rantingrick wrote:
> On Jan 17, 2:09 pm, "Martin P. Hellwig"<(E-Mail Removed)>
> wrote:
>
>> fortunately it is not my call and I actually
>> quite like Tkinter.

>
>
> Are you sure about that Martin? ))
>
>> From: "Martin P. Hellwig"<(E-Mail Removed)>
>> Newsgroups: comp.lang.python
>> Subject: Re: GUIs - A Modest Proposal
>> Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 07:10:35 +0100

> [...snip...]
>> Though I don't like tkinter either, but I don't seem to hate it as
>> much as others do.

>
> hmm?

Yep when I started looking much more at other toolkits, I started to
like Tkinter more and more. Maybe it its simplicity, or that not every
thing starts with a bloody g or that it is actually cross platform
usable without jumping through hoops charted in a map where lat/long
references have been omitted because in the future a map of mars will
not cause confusion, even though it is totally irrelevant now.

Actually my favourite GUI toolkit at the moment is pyjamas.

--
mph
 
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Terry Reedy
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      01-17-2011
On 1/16/2011 11:20 PM, rantingrick wrote:

> Ok, try this...
>
> http://juicereceiver.sourceforge.net...hots/index.php
> http://www.sensi.org/~ak/pyslsk/pyslsk6.png
> http://www.wxwidgets.org/about/screensh.htm


Ok, wxwidgets can look at least as good as tk. Agreed that wxpython
might instead link to the excellent wxwidgets page.

--
Terry Jan Reedy

 
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rantingrick
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      01-17-2011
On Jan 17, 4:47*pm, Terry Reedy <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> On 1/16/2011 11:20 PM, rantingrick wrote:
>
> > Ok, try this...

>
> > * * *http://juicereceiver.sourceforge.net...hots/index.php
> > * * *http://www.sensi.org/~ak/pyslsk/pyslsk6.png
> > * * *http://www.wxwidgets.org/about/screensh.htm

>
> Ok, wxwidgets can look at least as good as tk. Agreed that wxpython
> might instead link to the excellent wxwidgets page.
>
> --
> Terry Jan Reedy


Thanks for being honest. We need more people acting in this manner and
just think of the progress we could make, it would wonderful!

You know we Python programmers are professional debaters. This has
been my take on the Python community. However without the virtues of
compromise and community spirit all we are going to do is fight like
cats and dogs forever to the very detriment of the very community we
wish to muster

We need to look at these problems from a community perspective and
tone down the rhetoric. The layer of thick sarcasm that exists is so
viscous and putrid that any semblance of civility is completely
impervious to it's gelatinous all encompassing mass. We need to get
more folks involved in the decision process. We need more community
discussion and less community corruption. Currently we have a small
subset of the community making a large proportion of the decisions. We
did have a monarchy ruled by our beloved dictator however it has
degenerated into a banana republic! We need democracy and we need it
now!

 
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