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building a web interface

 
 
Shel
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      11-20-2010
Hello,

I am pretty new to all this. I have some coding experience, and am
currently most comfortable with Python. I also have database design
experience with MS Access, and have just created my first mySQL db.

So right now I have a mySQL db structure and some Python code. My end
goal is to create a browser-based interactive fiction/game thing. My
code is currently just using dummy data rather than pulling in data
from the db, but I think/hope it won't be too big of a deal to
interact with the db through Python (famous last words...).

My main problem right now is how to do the web interface. I don't know
much about web architecture, unfortunately. I think I need a CGI
script?

What I would really like is to find a GUI tool to design the interface
that would have customizable templates or drag-and-drop elements or
something, so I wouldn't have to code much by hand. Something easy, if
such a tool exists.

Also would prefer something that I would be able to install/use
without having much access to the server where the site will be hosted
(on a university server that I don't have control over). I don't fully
understand how a lot of the tools I have been looking at work, but it
seems like they're often things where you'd have to get an
administrator to do stuff on the server (is that right?), which I
would prefer to avoid.

It looks like Django has some sort of standalone implementation, but
I'm not clear on how that would work or how much of a learning curve
there would be for using it.

If anyone has any thoughts or suggestions, I would really appreciate
it.

Hope my questions make sense. I don't really know what I'm doing, so
could be they're a bit silly. I apologize if that's the case, and
please let me know if you need any additional informmation.

Thanks,
Shel
 
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Martin Gregorie
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      11-21-2010
On Sat, 20 Nov 2010 14:40:16 -0800, Shel wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I am pretty new to all this. I have some coding experience, and am
> currently most comfortable with Python. I also have database design
> experience with MS Access, and have just created my first mySQL db.
>
> So right now I have a mySQL db structure and some Python code. My end
> goal is to create a browser-based interactive fiction/game thing. My
> code is currently just using dummy data rather than pulling in data from
> the db, but I think/hope it won't be too big of a deal to interact with
> the db through Python (famous last words...).
>

Wrong approach. If you're going to use a database, start with writing a
program that puts your data into it alongside the program that reads and
uses the data. Do it incrementally: if you are writing an adventure game
a good place to start would be the 'place' table and the part of the game
builder that adds/amends/removes a place from the database as well as
enough of the game program to show the place description and use the
doors to move from place to place. This way you'll have that working
before you start adding weapons, monsters, etc. or try to implement
fights. You'll also learn that writing place descriptions isn't as easy
as it sounds: if there are several doors into a room the description must
make sense no matter which way you come into it. Its quite hard at first
to avoid descriptions like "Further into the forest. Its getting darker"
which may be OK coming from a road but is pretty stupid if you're on your
way out of the forest toward the road.

http://www.kitebird.com/articles/pydbapi.html which tells you what you
need to know about accessing SQL databases.

> My main problem right now is how to do the web interface. I don't know
> much about web architecture, unfortunately. I think I need a CGI script?
>

You're biting off quite a lot at once. It may be easier to first write a
command line Python program and get it working in that form. Once you
have the game/application logic working you can adapt it to run as a CGI
script. Development and debugging will be easier that way.

If you're not familiar with this style of adventure game, look here:
http://www.rickadams.org/adventure/ You'll find various downloadable
examples on the downloads page as DOS executables and in C or Fortran
source code. Have a play with it to see what even this very basic user
interaction can do - you'll have fun and learn useful stuff.

> What I would really like is to find a GUI tool to design the interface
> that would have customizable templates or drag-and-drop elements or
> something, so I wouldn't have to code much by hand. Something easy, if
> such a tool exists.
>

If you're doing a textual adventure of something like it a tool won't
gain you much, since you only need a few skeleton web pages than your
program can select and drop text or images into.

> Also would prefer something that I would be able to install/use without
> having much access to the server where the site will be hosted (on a
> university server that I don't have control over). I don't fully
> understand how a lot of the tools I have been looking at work, but it
> seems like they're often things where you'd have to get an administrator
> to do stuff on the server (is that right?), which I would prefer to
> avoid.
>

CGI and Python should be OK providing the server has Python available and
the admins will let you use CGI, but that's not a good development
platform.

You really need a web server you can start, stop and fiddle with once you
get to the point of putting your code in a server. Running a simple local
web server on your computer would be a better place to start: once its
running you simply point your browser at localhost:80 and send it the URL
of the initial page of your application.

Search on "Python web server" for details of building or downloading a
simple one. You'll also find stuff about interfacing Python programs to a
web server.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |
 
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Dennis Lee Bieber
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      11-21-2010
On Sat, 20 Nov 2010 14:40:16 -0800 (PST), Shel
<(E-Mail Removed)> declaimed the following in
gmane.comp.python.general:

> What I would really like is to find a GUI tool to design the interface
> that would have customizable templates or drag-and-drop elements or
> something, so I wouldn't have to code much by hand. Something easy, if
> such a tool exists.
>

In original pure HTML, such would be rather meaningless... Pure HTML
leaves the presentation (the rendering) of the page up to the user's
browser. Layout of one item against another is only relative (form field
2 comes after form field 1). And I've seen some rather ugly pages
produced using so-called graphical design tools (like layers of
<i><b><i><b> text </b></i></b></i> because the tool isn't smart enough
to find and remove prior tag pairs when one changes intent... I've also
seen <i><b> text </i></b>).

Frames were one attempt at dividing a browser into regions in which
some stuff could stay constant while others are scrolled.

Then you get the hoard that creates things like transparent GIF
files with a few pixels to create "spacing" elements...

I tend to use an ancient copy of HomeSite 5 for HTML editing --
though I don't do enough such to justify taking the time to define
things like Django's templating tags as standard types. I prefer to edit
in the original intent of HTML -- as a mark-up language which identifies
WHAT a construct is, but does not bother with HOW/WHERE that construct
is rendered. If I really need something looking more like a newspaper
layout I'd define a table and use combinations of row and column span to
"grid" the contents as desired -- and even that would still use
proportional spacing (90% of browser width, say) rather than absolute
pixels (845 pixels wide).


> Also would prefer something that I would be able to install/use
> without having much access to the server where the site will be hosted
> (on a university server that I don't have control over). I don't fully
> understand how a lot of the tools I have been looking at work, but it
> seems like they're often things where you'd have to get an
> administrator to do stuff on the server (is that right?), which I
> would prefer to avoid.
>

First step -- find out what toolset the server uses; Apache with
mod-python? mod-WSGI? Do they even have Python available? and if so,
what version (do they have MySQL available AND MySQLdb, and how much
control will they give you -- MySQL administration could be set up to
where they have to create the database AND table definitions, and all
you get is read/update/delete data privileges... Or they create the
database with no contents but your account has table manipulation
privileges within that database... Can you administer your database vie
direct login to the MySQL server, or do you have to go through some
web-based interface?).

> It looks like Django has some sort of standalone implementation, but
> I'm not clear on how that would work or how much of a learning curve
> there would be for using it.
>

The "standalone" is a development/debug server mode running on a
non-standard port number (HTTP is privileged port 80, these types of
development servers often run on ports 8080, 8081, etc. as one does not
need to be superuser to bind to the port number). It is not meant as a
production server. Instead one has the real server configured to run the
application (Django and similar are not simple stand-alone CGI scripts;
pages are _methods/functions_ within the application which generate the
page contents and return them to the server for delivery).

--
Wulfraed Dennis Lee Bieber AF6VN
http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/(E-Mail Removed) HTTP://wlfraed.home.netcom.com/

 
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Shel
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      11-21-2010
X-No-Archive:Thanks for your advice. Will take a look at
rickadamsadventure.org. Although I am not actually creating an
adventure game, I'm sure it will be helpful.

Sorry I wasn't clear about the db part. Most of the data has already
been written and/or generated and tested with the code. I do plan to
finish all the database stuff before going to the front end, but am
just thinking ahead about how to do the interface.


On Nov 20, 4:10*pm, Martin Gregorie <(E-Mail Removed)>
wrote:
> On Sat, 20 Nov 2010 14:40:16 -0800, Shel wrote:
> > Hello,

>
> > I am pretty new to all this. I have some coding experience, and am
> > currently most comfortable with Python. *I also have database design
> > experience with MS Access, and have just created my first mySQL db.

>
> > So right now I have a mySQL db structure and some Python code. My end
> > goal is to create a browser-based interactive fiction/game thing. My
> > code is currently just using dummy data rather than pulling in data from
> > the db, but I think/hope it won't be too big of a deal to interact with
> > the db through Python (famous last words...).

>
> Wrong approach. If you're going to use a database, start with writing a
> program that puts your data into it alongside the program that reads and
> uses the data. Do it incrementally: if you are writing an adventure game
> a good place to start would be the 'place' table and the part of the game
> builder that adds/amends/removes a place from the database as well as
> enough of the game program to show the place description and use the
> doors to move from place to place. This way you'll have that working
> before you start adding weapons, monsters, etc. or try to implement
> fights. You'll also learn that writing place descriptions isn't as easy
> as it sounds: if there are several doors into a room the description must
> make sense no matter which way you come into it. Its quite hard at first
> to avoid descriptions like "Further into the forest. Its getting darker"
> which may be OK coming from a road but is pretty stupid if you're on your
> way out of the forest toward the road.
>
> http://www.kitebird.com/articles/pydbapi.htmlwhich tells you what you
> need to know about accessing SQL databases.
>
> > My main problem right now is how to do the web interface. I don't know
> > much about web architecture, unfortunately. I think I need a CGI script?

>
> You're biting off quite a lot at once. It may be easier to first write a
> command line Python program and get it working in that form. Once you
> have the game/application logic working you can adapt it to run as a CGI
> script. Development and debugging will be easier that way.
>
> If you're not familiar with this style of adventure game, look here:http://www.rickadams.org/adventure/You'll find various downloadable
> examples on the downloads page as DOS executables and in C or Fortran
> source code. Have a play with it to see what even this very basic user
> interaction can do - you'll have fun and learn useful stuff.
>
> > What I would really like is to find a GUI tool to design the interface
> > that would have customizable templates or drag-and-drop elements or
> > something, so I wouldn't have to code much by hand. Something easy, if
> > such a tool exists.

>
> If you're doing a textual adventure of something like it a tool won't
> gain you much, since you only need a few skeleton web pages than your
> program can select and drop text or images into.
>
> > Also would prefer something that I would be able to install/use without
> > having much access to the server where the site will be hosted (on a
> > university server that I don't have control over). I don't fully
> > understand how a lot of the tools I have been looking at work, but it
> > seems like they're often things where you'd have to get an administrator
> > to do stuff on the server (is that right?), which I would prefer to
> > avoid.

>
> CGI and Python should be OK providing the server has Python available and
> the admins will let you use CGI, but that's not a good development
> platform.
>
> You really need a web server you can start, stop and fiddle with once you
> get to the point of putting your code in a server. Running a simple local
> web server on your computer would be a better place to start: once its
> running you simply point your browser at localhost:80 and send it the URL
> of the initial page of your application.
>
> Search on "Python web server" for details of building or downloading a
> simple one. You'll also find stuff about interfacing Python programs to a
> web server.
>
> --
> martin@ * | Martin Gregorie
> gregorie. | Essex, UK
> org * * * |


 
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Shel
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      11-21-2010
Thanks for your help.

I know that they have Python and mySQL. They have mySQL set up so
that they just have to create the db, which they've already done and
I've defined the tables and modified the data and whatnot, so that
seems good. Not sure about mod-python v. mod-wsgi.

Ah, the Django thing makes more sense to me now. I couldn't quite
figure out what the heck they were talking about in the description of
it.

Shel

On Nov 20, 4:19*pm, Dennis Lee Bieber <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> On Sat, 20 Nov 2010 14:40:16 -0800 (PST), Shel
> <(E-Mail Removed)> declaimed the following in
> gmane.comp.python.general:
>
> > What I would really like is to find a GUI tool to design the interface
> > that would have customizable templates or drag-and-drop elements or
> > something, so I wouldn't have to code much by hand. Something easy, if
> > such a tool exists.

>
> * * * * In original pure HTML, such would be rather meaningless.... Pure HTML
> leaves the presentation (the rendering) of the page up to the user's
> browser. Layout of one item against another is only relative (form field
> 2 comes after form field 1). And I've seen some rather ugly pages
> produced using so-called graphical design tools (like layers of
> <i><b><i><b> text </b></i></b></i> because the tool isn't smart enough
> to find and remove prior tag pairs when one changes intent... I've also
> seen <i><b> text </i></b>).
>
> * * * * Frames were one attempt at dividing a browser into regions in which
> some stuff could stay constant while others are scrolled.
>
> * * * * Then you get the hoard that creates things like transparent GIF
> files with a few pixels to create "spacing" elements...
>
> * * * * I tend to use an ancient copy of HomeSite 5 for HTML editing --
> though I don't do enough such to justify taking the time to define
> things like Django's templating tags as standard types. I prefer to edit
> in the original intent of HTML -- as a mark-up language which identifies
> WHAT a construct is, but does not bother with HOW/WHERE that construct
> is rendered. If I really need something looking more like a newspaper
> layout I'd define a table and use combinations of row and column span to
> "grid" the contents as desired -- and even that would still use
> proportional spacing (90% of browser width, say) rather than absolute
> pixels (845 pixels wide).
>
> > Also would prefer something that I would be able to install/use
> > without having much access to the server where the site will be hosted
> > (on a university server that I don't have control over). I don't fully
> > understand how a lot of the tools I have been looking at work, but it
> > seems like they're often things where you'd have to get an
> > administrator to do stuff on the server (is that right?), which I
> > would prefer to avoid.

>
> * * * * First step -- find out what toolset the server uses; Apache with
> mod-python? mod-WSGI? Do they even have Python available? and if so,
> what version (do they have MySQL available AND MySQLdb, and how much
> control will they give you -- MySQL administration could be set up to
> where they have to create the database AND table definitions, and all
> you get is read/update/delete data privileges... Or they create the
> database with no contents but your account has table manipulation
> privileges within that database... Can you administer your database vie
> direct login to the MySQL server, or do you have to go through some
> web-based interface?).
>
> > It looks like Django has some sort of standalone implementation, but
> > I'm not clear on how that would work or how much of a learning curve
> > there would be for using it.

>
> * * * * The "standalone" is a development/debug server mode running on a
> non-standard port number (HTTP is privileged port 80, these types of
> development servers often run on ports 8080, 8081, etc. as one does not
> need to be superuser to bind to the port number). It is not meant as a
> production server. Instead one has the real server configured to run the
> application (Django and similar are not simple stand-alone CGI scripts;
> pages are _methods/functions_ within the application which generate the
> page contents and return them to the server for delivery).
>
> --
> * * * * Wulfraed * * * * * * * * Dennis Lee Bieber * * * * AF6VN
> * * * * (E-Mail Removed) * *HTTP://wlfraed.home.netcom.com/


 
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Shel
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      11-21-2010
Thanks for your help.

I know that they have Python and mySQL. They have mySQL set up so
that they just have to create the db, which they've already done and
I've defined the tables and modified the data and whatnot, so that
seems good. Not sure about mod-python v. mod-wsgi.

Ah, the Django thing makes more sense to me now. I couldn't quite
figure out what the heck they were talking about in the description of
it.

Shel

On Nov 20, 4:19*pm, Dennis Lee Bieber <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> On Sat, 20 Nov 2010 14:40:16 -0800 (PST), Shel
> <(E-Mail Removed)> declaimed the following in
> gmane.comp.python.general:
>
> > What I would really like is to find a GUI tool to design the interface
> > that would have customizable templates or drag-and-drop elements or
> > something, so I wouldn't have to code much by hand. Something easy, if
> > such a tool exists.

>
> * * * * In original pure HTML, such would be rather meaningless.... Pure HTML
> leaves the presentation (the rendering) of the page up to the user's
> browser. Layout of one item against another is only relative (form field
> 2 comes after form field 1). And I've seen some rather ugly pages
> produced using so-called graphical design tools (like layers of
> <i><b><i><b> text </b></i></b></i> because the tool isn't smart enough
> to find and remove prior tag pairs when one changes intent... I've also
> seen <i><b> text </i></b>).
>
> * * * * Frames were one attempt at dividing a browser into regions in which
> some stuff could stay constant while others are scrolled.
>
> * * * * Then you get the hoard that creates things like transparent GIF
> files with a few pixels to create "spacing" elements...
>
> * * * * I tend to use an ancient copy of HomeSite 5 for HTML editing --
> though I don't do enough such to justify taking the time to define
> things like Django's templating tags as standard types. I prefer to edit
> in the original intent of HTML -- as a mark-up language which identifies
> WHAT a construct is, but does not bother with HOW/WHERE that construct
> is rendered. If I really need something looking more like a newspaper
> layout I'd define a table and use combinations of row and column span to
> "grid" the contents as desired -- and even that would still use
> proportional spacing (90% of browser width, say) rather than absolute
> pixels (845 pixels wide).
>
> > Also would prefer something that I would be able to install/use
> > without having much access to the server where the site will be hosted
> > (on a university server that I don't have control over). I don't fully
> > understand how a lot of the tools I have been looking at work, but it
> > seems like they're often things where you'd have to get an
> > administrator to do stuff on the server (is that right?), which I
> > would prefer to avoid.

>
> * * * * First step -- find out what toolset the server uses; Apache with
> mod-python? mod-WSGI? Do they even have Python available? and if so,
> what version (do they have MySQL available AND MySQLdb, and how much
> control will they give you -- MySQL administration could be set up to
> where they have to create the database AND table definitions, and all
> you get is read/update/delete data privileges... Or they create the
> database with no contents but your account has table manipulation
> privileges within that database... Can you administer your database vie
> direct login to the MySQL server, or do you have to go through some
> web-based interface?).
>
> > It looks like Django has some sort of standalone implementation, but
> > I'm not clear on how that would work or how much of a learning curve
> > there would be for using it.

>
> * * * * The "standalone" is a development/debug server mode running on a
> non-standard port number (HTTP is privileged port 80, these types of
> development servers often run on ports 8080, 8081, etc. as one does not
> need to be superuser to bind to the port number). It is not meant as a
> production server. Instead one has the real server configured to run the
> application (Django and similar are not simple stand-alone CGI scripts;
> pages are _methods/functions_ within the application which generate the
> page contents and return them to the server for delivery).
>
> --
> * * * * Wulfraed * * * * * * * * Dennis Lee Bieber * * * * AF6VN
> * * * * (E-Mail Removed) * *HTTP://wlfraed.home.netcom.com/


 
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Shel
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      11-21-2010
This looks very promising. Thanks so much!
Shel

On Nov 20, 4:36*pm, Stef Mientki <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> On 20-11-2010 23:40, Shel wrote:
>
> > Hello,

>
> > I am pretty new to all this. I have some coding experience, and am
> > currently most comfortable with Python. *I also have database design
> > experience with MS Access, and have just created my first mySQL db.

>
> > So right now I have a mySQL db structure and some Python code. My end
> > goal is to create a browser-based interactive fiction/game thing. My
> > code is currently just using dummy data rather than pulling in data
> > from the db, but I think/hope it won't be too big of a deal to
> > interact with the db through Python (famous last words...).

>
> > My main problem right now is how to do the web interface. I don't know
> > much about web architecture, unfortunately. I think I need a CGI
> > script?

>
> > What I would really like is to find a GUI tool to design the interface
> > that would have customizable templates or drag-and-drop elements or
> > something, so I wouldn't have to code much by hand. Something easy, if
> > such a tool exists.

>
> > Also would prefer something that I would be able to install/use
> > without having much access to the server where the site will be hosted
> > (on a university server that I don't have control over). I don't fully
> > understand how a lot of the tools I have been looking at work, but it
> > seems like they're often things where you'd have to get an
> > administrator to do stuff on the server (is that right?), which I
> > would prefer to avoid.

>
> > It looks like Django has some sort of standalone implementation, but
> > I'm not clear on how that would work or how much of a learning curve
> > there would be for using it.

>
> > If anyone has any thoughts or suggestions, I would really appreciate
> > it.

>
> > Hope my questions make sense. I don't really know what I'm doing, so
> > could be they're a bit silly. I apologize if that's the case, and
> > please let me know if you need any additional informmation.

>
> > Thanks,
> > Shel

>
> you might take a look at web2py,
> it can be handled quit low level,
> runs perfectly on a the build python server,
> and you switch to almost any database at any time
>
> cheers,
> Stef


 
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Ian Kelly
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      11-21-2010
On 11/20/2010 3:40 PM, Shel wrote:
> So right now I have a mySQL db structure and some Python code. My end
> goal is to create a browser-based interactive fiction/game thing. My
> code is currently just using dummy data rather than pulling in data
> from the db, but I think/hope it won't be too big of a deal to
> interact with the db through Python (famous last words...).


Suggestion: unless you're intent on reinventing the wheel, why not just
set up your web interface as a thin front-end for an existing IF engine?
An excellent starting point for this would be digging up the source
for InfocomBot [1], an AIM bot that acts as a simple wrapper around
Frotz [2]. My recollection of seeing the source once is that it was
only around 50 or so lines of code. Doing it this way,

1) You don't have to write an IF engine from scratch.

2) If you wrap Frotz specifically, you can serve any Z-code game ever
written, including (I think) all of the Infocom games.

3) You can create your game using powerful existing development tools,
such as Inform [3].

Cheers,
Ian

[1] http://waxy.org/2004/03/infocombot_for/
[2] http://frotz.sourceforge.net/
[3] http://inform7.com/

 
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Martin Gregorie
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      11-21-2010
On Sat, 20 Nov 2010 17:20:53 -0800, Shel wrote:

> Sorry I wasn't clear about the db part. Most of the data has already
> been written and/or generated and tested with the code. I do plan to
> finish all the database stuff before going to the front end, but am just
> thinking ahead about how to do the interface.
>

That sounds good. Sorry if I was repeating stuff you already know, but it
wasn't obvious what you knew about care & feeding of an RDBMS. I'll just
add two comments on databases:
- Decompose the database design to 3NF form and make sure all prime
and foreign keys have indexes. This is stuff that previous experience
shows self-taught Access users don't do. Not doing it will bite you
hard on performance as soon as the tables exceed a few rows in size.
Fixing it later can force major changes to the programs as well.

- If you haven't looked at it yet, find out about the EXPLAIN verb
and what its output means. Use it on all queries that your online
program issues and take notice of how rearranging the query and/or
adding/changing indexes affects the cost of the query. Lower cost
queries mean higher performance and hence faster response times.

What I meant to add last night is that, if your application is to be used
by more than a single user at a time a prime consideration is how you
will recognise input received from each user and how you'll store their
context between interactions with them in the same session and keep each
session's context separate. The web server doesn't do this, so this
managing session context is the application's responsibility. Common
methods are to use a session cookie and/or to store session context in
the database.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |
 
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Shel
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      11-21-2010
Definitely not looking to reinvent the wheel. Will check these out,
thanks!
Shel

On Nov 20, 9:50*pm, Ian Kelly <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> On 11/20/2010 3:40 PM, Shel wrote:
>
> > So right now I have a mySQL db structure and some Python code. My end
> > goal is to create a browser-based interactive fiction/game thing. My
> > code is currently just using dummy data rather than pulling in data
> > from the db, but I think/hope it won't be too big of a deal to
> > interact with the db through Python (famous last words...).

>
> Suggestion: unless you're intent on reinventing the wheel, why not just
> set up your web interface as a thin front-end for an existing IF engine?
> * An excellent starting point for this would be digging up the source
> for InfocomBot [1], an AIM bot that acts as a simple wrapper around
> Frotz [2]. *My recollection of seeing the source once is that it was
> only around 50 or so lines of code. *Doing it this way,
>
> 1) You don't have to write an IF engine from scratch.
>
> 2) If you wrap Frotz specifically, you can serve any Z-code game ever
> written, including (I think) all of the Infocom games.
>
> 3) You can create your game using powerful existing development tools,
> such as Inform [3].
>
> Cheers,
> Ian
>
> [1]http://waxy.org/2004/03/infocombot_for/
> [2]http://frotz.sourceforge.net/
> [3]http://inform7.com/


 
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