«

And for those interested:
http://www.petitionspot.com/petitions/macjdk

Arne

On Tue, 26 Oct 2010 01:08:53 -0700, Peter Duniho
<> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted
someone who said :

>I'm no great fan of Apple and their business practices, and this is
>nowhere near to being relevant to Java anymore, but…

What Apple is doing is a major threat. Apple is cutting Java out of a
big chunk of its natural territory. In earlier times, Sun would have
simply done its own Java for Apple products and Apple would have done
its best to ensure they did not work, much like early Sun-Microsoft
rivalry. However, I doubt Oracle has much interest in the Apple niche.

It seems to me that many Apple products now are sold like Rolex
watches, not so much because they tell the time that much better, but
BECAUSE they are expensive and make a fashion statement. Apps that
anyone can have via Java are the antithesis of this designer phone
mentality.

One place for Java to go that does not sound that glamourous is
schools in the third world. IBM used a strategy like this is the 1960s
by offering computers to universities at greatly reduced cost. When
the students later went out into business they tended to select that
which was familiar. Over the next decades, that market will dwarf the
Apple niche.




--
Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products
http://mindprod.com

Microsoft has a new version out, Windows XP, which according to everybody is the "most reliable Windows ever." To me, this is like saying that asparagus is "the most articulate vegetable ever."
~ Dave Barry

"Arne Vajhøj" <> wrote in message
news:4cc6f114$0$23755$...
> On 26-10-2010 04:08, Peter Duniho wrote:
>> I think more to the point re: Arne's statement is that Apple products
>> are selling "fine", but that doesn't mean they are going to be able to
>> remain dominant in any of their markets
>
> The stock market is betting billions that they will.

Of course, it bet trillions on CDOs being a sound investment.

Stockmarket - that's a technically competent source. Didn't that have
some sort of major crisis recently? Maybe it was running on Apple
systems? Does anything said here actually negate what I said? Jobs may
be laughing all the way to the bank, but at what cost to everyone
else? Just because he can doesn't mean he should. A turd, no matter
how glossy and polished it may appear, is still a turd.

The Frog

In article <4cc6fd41$0$23759$>,
says...
>
> And for those interested:
> http://www.petitionspot.com/petitions/macjdk
>
> Arne

Signed!

I'm going to go download the BSD port of OpenJDK.

It runs under X. I'm assuming that means that my Java apps will not use
the Cocoa UI, as they do now when running in the Apple JVM.

Thanks for the link.

--
Steve Sobol, Apple Valley, California, USA

In article <>,
lid says...


> One place for Java to go that does not sound that glamourous is
> schools in the third world. IBM used a strategy like this is the 1960s
> by offering computers to universities at greatly reduced cost. When
> the students later went out into business they tended to select that
> which was familiar. Over the next decades, that market will dwarf the
> Apple niche.


Microsoft does the same thing. Have you seen their educational
discounts? I can get Visual Studio for $99 because my wife is a public
school teacher. Visual Studio *retails* for over $900.


--
Steve Sobol, Apple Valley, California, USA

On 26-10-2010 19:35, Steve Sobol wrote:
> In article<4cc6fd41$0$23759$> ,
> says...
>>
>> And for those interested:
>> http://www.petitionspot.com/petitions/macjdk
>
> Signed!
>
> I'm going to go download the BSD port of OpenJDK.
>
> It runs under X. I'm assuming that means that my Java apps will not use
> the Cocoa UI, as they do now when running in the Apple JVM.

Sounds likely. Code for *BSD would not come with anything
Apple specific.

It would be a fair guess that this stuff is among the relevant
parts to get open sourced.

Arne

In article < isition>,
says...

> Roedy Green wrote:
> > What Apple is doing is a major threat.
>
> But, to whom?

People who make their living developing Java apps on OS X. I can't see
this being a major threat to anyone else.

> I mean, it's annoying for them to say they are getting out of the Java
> game. But it was also annoying for them to always be a full version
> behind the rest of the Java world.

Agreed.

> Maybe now (eventually), Java on the Mac will be a bit more up-to-date.

Hopefully.

> Or, maybe Apple will successfully kill Java on the Mac altogether. More
> power to them if they can get that to work, but I doubt it will help
> their bottom line. Fact is, the main reason I even got involved in Java
> was because a) I find the standard Mac API (Objective-C/Cocoa) to be
> out-dated, awkward, and unfriendly, and b) I hate porting software and
> would rather write-once, test-and-run-everywhere.

I'd like Mac users to be able to run my software, but I don't like
porting either. For me it'll be Java or nothing.

> If there's no more Java on the Mac, I'm not likely to waste much time
> porting programs to the Mac. They just won't run there. Fact is, only
> about 25% the stuff I write is in Java anyway; the rest is in .NET or
> unmanaged Win32 and is stuck on a Windows box anyway.

Most of what I do is Java-powered websites which run on my Linux server,
or Windows/Linux Java desktop apps, with some .NET and a tiny bit of
Win32 thrown in for good measure.

> I doubt I'm all _that_ unusual in the programming world. As Apple
> continues to deprecate and eliminate the ability to run on Mac OS
> through the use of cross-platform tools, they are likely to find that
> people just write less and less software for the Mac.

I agree.

> There will always be the die-hard fanatics who just love everything
> Apple. Especially for the essential programs, there will be Mac
> versions. But even huge corporations sometimes find that they just
> aren't getting enough return on their investment trying to support
> cross-platform in-house, and smaller developers are likely to stick with
> the biggest markets.

I commented to someone that being a Mac owner is a completely new
experience to me, and that I hadn't even USED Macs on a regular basis in
20 years.

Back then, I was doing Desktop Publishing for Kinko's, on second- or
third-generation Macs.

OS X is still a preferred platform in publishing, as well as a few other
industries.

But even there, a lot of the stuff that runs on Mac also runs on
Windows. For example, any Adobe product.


--
Steve Sobol, Apple Valley, California, USA

On Sun, 24 Oct 2010 22:12:33 -0400, Arne Vajhøj wrote:

> On 24-10-2010 21:54, Thufir Hawat wrote:
>> On Thu, 21 Oct 2010 17:17:30 -0400, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>> possibly is goes to being more like Windows: people use the
>>>> Sun/Oracle implementation, rather than a native version provided by
>>>> the OS vendor.
>>>
>>> Could be.
>>>
>>> If Oracle wants to.
>>>
>>> Technically it would not be a big problem given that OpenJDK BSD port
>>> builds on MacOS X!
>>
>> What about Swing on the Mac, though?
>
> Swing is possible the easiest possible GUI framework to port to a new
> OS.
>
> All you need is something on the platform to draw a bitmap and then the
> Swing classes does all the work themselves.
>
> Arne
>
> PS: Well - most Mac OS X users will say "puh badr - it does
> not look as it should", but ...


I suppose I was referring to the Swing-Cocoa bridge (not a mac user):

"What does this mean for Eclipse and other Java-based IDEs? Well, one of
the key problems is that the OSX implementation of Java provides a number
of Cocoa-specific bindings and hooks. Whilst Eclipse is based on top of
SWT, and SWT uses the native widget set directly (rather than AWT and
Swing which render their own), there are a number of hooks into the Cocoa
layer to provide application-level services. Some of these have been
extended in the redesigned eAWT package to permit Java applications to
opt into user events (including the “sudden termination� which enables
faster OS shutdown)."


http://alblue.bandlem.com/2010/10/ap...ates-java.html



-Thufir

On 25-10-2010 00:39, ClassCastException wrote:
> On Sun, 24 Oct 2010 15:25:20 -0400, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>
>> On 24-10-2010 07:58, ClassCastException wrote:
>>> On Sat, 23 Oct 2010 21:12:58 -0400, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 23-10-2010 02:49, ClassCastException wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 22 Oct 2010 18:50:47 -0400, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 22-10-2010 00:26, ClassCastException wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thu, 21 Oct 2010 22:23:59 -0400, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 21-10-2010 21:40, Steve Sobol wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In article<i9q0bo$u2r$>,
>>>>>>>>> says...
>>>>>>>>>> MS essentially killed off their own Java implementation as well,
>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> no one
>>>>>>>>>> noticed.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That was different. Microsoft Java was a bastardized version of
>>>>>>>>> Java based on a 1.1 JVM with some M$-specific extensions.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Not only extensions.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Also a few things removed that MS did not want there.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The latter has a pretty bad impact on portability.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So do non-standard extensions: developers use them (sometimes
>>>>>>> unwittingly) and then their code isn't portable to the whole rest
>>>>>>> of the world.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> True.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But that happens all the time both in Java (and other languages).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A standard does not prevent non-portable code. A standard makes it
>>>>>> possible to write portable code.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You can avoid using non standard extensions and other ways of
>>>>>> writing non-portable code.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You can not do anything to protect against somebody not implementing
>>>>>> the full standard.
>>>>>
>>>>> You can not do anything to protect against another developer using a
>>>>> non standard extension.
>>>>
>>>> Ever heard of code review?
>>>
>>> So, maybe your boss can. You still can't.
>>
>> Why do you think it is called peer review and not boss review?
>
> You didn't say "peer review", you said "code review".

Code reviews are supposed to be peer reviews.

Arne