Velocity Reviews - Computer Hardware Reviews

Velocity Reviews > Newsgroups > Computing > Digital Photography > Synergy Batteries -- Can anyone comment?

Reply
Thread Tools

Synergy Batteries -- Can anyone comment?

 
 
Robert Spanjaard
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      07-06-2010
On Mon, 05 Jul 2010 21:18:01 -0500, Joel Connor wrote:

> On Tue, 6 Jul 2010 01:35:19 +0000 (UTC), http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/(E-Mail Removed) (Mike S.)
> wrote:
>
>
>>In article <(E-Mail Removed)>, Joel Connor
>><(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>>
>>>There's a new type of 1.25v AA battery on the market, using a Lithium
>>>Polymer configuration (not unlike the flat-pack in my MP3 player, but
>>>at a different voltage) marketed by a company name of Hahnel.
>>>
>>>A quick cursory search for reviews and discussions seem favorable. With
>>>good low-temperature performance down to 23° F (-5° C), fast charging
>>>times, etc.
>>>
>>>Anyone here ever use them and care to comment?

>
>
>>No experience, but your teaser sparked me interest and I looked around.
>>Unfortunately, the only product under this brand/model I can find is a
>>pre-charged NiMH cell ... even at the manufacturer's website
>>(http://www.hahnel.ie/index.cfm/page/aamignonbatteries).
>>
>>Can you post a reference to a Li-Poly AA product?
>>
>>

> I'm getting conflicting information between ads and posts I've read.
> Such as this one from amazon.co.uk
>
> <http://www.amazon.co.uk/Hahnel-Synergy-AA-Rechargeable-Batteries/dp/B000LY25WQ/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1278381027&sr =8-2>
> which states:
>
> "Product Description
> hahnel Synergy batteries offer a number of advantages over traditional
> alkaline batteries, including up to four times more power when used in a
> digital camera, high performance even at low temperatures (down to 23
> degrees F) during your winter holiday, and a vast cost savings in the
> long run. The Synergy advantages are even more glaring when compared to
> typical NiMH batteries: not only are they ready for use right out of the
> packet, but they generally last longer than most NiMH batteries
> (continuous and frequent recharging can destroy other NiMH models) and
> save both time and money (traditional NiMH charging is slow when you're
> in a hurry, while rapid chargers are expensive). All told, you can
> recharge these batteries up to 500 times without experiencing a memory
> effect; just charge the amount you need and you're set."
>
> Most are claiming a typical NiMH chemistry. One I had read claiming
> Li-Poly (and can't find that thread now). It could be I read that page
> too fast and confused it for a Li-Poly chemistry. Which had me wondering
> because Lithium chemistry will define 3.7v. Though I couldn't figure out
> how they got 1.25v base voltage from HiMH chemistry either.
>
> Then there's also the "Mignon" (not Synergy) brand name from Hahnel that
> also claims NiMH chemistry.
>
> Maybe they're just a new NiMH configuration and not Li-Poly.
>
> In either case, they seem to be an improvement over the more recently
> popular "Eneloop", "Hybrid", and other "pre-charged" NiMHs out there.
> The rated 1.25v strongly suggests a different chemistry. So I was
> wondering if anyone's been using them and if they perform up to their
> claims.
>
> I do a lot of near-arctic-temperature photography at times (down to
> -44F) and any improvement in cold weather performance, as well as
> reliable fast-recharge times, intrigues me.


We all know you are incapable of judging photographs.

http://www.arumes.com/temp/nimh.jpg

--
Regards, Robert http://www.arumes.com
 
Reply With Quote
 
 
 
 
Robert Spanjaard
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      07-06-2010
On Mon, 05 Jul 2010 21:18:01 -0500, Joel Connor wrote:

> On Tue, 6 Jul 2010 01:35:19 +0000 (UTC), (E-Mail Removed) (Mike S.)
> wrote:
>
>
>>In article <(E-Mail Removed)>, Joel Connor
>><(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>>
>>>There's a new type of 1.25v AA battery on the market, using a Lithium
>>>Polymer configuration (not unlike the flat-pack in my MP3 player, but
>>>at a different voltage) marketed by a company name of Hahnel.
>>>
>>>A quick cursory search for reviews and discussions seem favorable. With
>>>good low-temperature performance down to 23° F (-5° C), fast charging
>>>times, etc.
>>>
>>>Anyone here ever use them and care to comment?

>
>
>>No experience, but your teaser sparked me interest and I looked around.
>>Unfortunately, the only product under this brand/model I can find is a
>>pre-charged NiMH cell ... even at the manufacturer's website
>>(http://www.hahnel.ie/index.cfm/page/aamignonbatteries).
>>
>>Can you post a reference to a Li-Poly AA product?
>>
>>

> I'm getting conflicting information between ads and posts I've read.
> Such as this one from amazon.co.uk
>
> <http://www.amazon.co.uk/Hahnel-Synergy-AA-Rechargeable-Batteries/dp/B000LY25WQ/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1278381027&sr =8-2>
> which states:
>
> "Product Description
> hahnel Synergy batteries offer a number of advantages over traditional
> alkaline batteries, including up to four times more power when used in a
> digital camera, high performance even at low temperatures (down to 23
> degrees F) during your winter holiday, and a vast cost savings in the
> long run. The Synergy advantages are even more glaring when compared to
> typical NiMH batteries: not only are they ready for use right out of the
> packet, but they generally last longer than most NiMH batteries
> (continuous and frequent recharging can destroy other NiMH models) and
> save both time and money (traditional NiMH charging is slow when you're
> in a hurry, while rapid chargers are expensive). All told, you can
> recharge these batteries up to 500 times without experiencing a memory
> effect; just charge the amount you need and you're set."
>
> Most are claiming a typical NiMH chemistry. One I had read claiming
> Li-Poly (and can't find that thread now). It could be I read that page
> too fast and confused it for a Li-Poly chemistry. Which had me wondering
> because Lithium chemistry will define 3.7v. Though I couldn't figure out
> how they got 1.25v base voltage from HiMH chemistry either.
>
> Then there's also the "Mignon" (not Synergy) brand name from Hahnel that
> also claims NiMH chemistry.


Oh, and Mignon is not a brand name.
It's just another name for "AA battery".

--
Regards, Robert http://www.arumes.com
 
Reply With Quote
 
 
 
 
J. Clarke
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      07-06-2010
On 7/6/2010 6:53 AM, Robert Spanjaard wrote:
> On Mon, 05 Jul 2010 21:18:01 -0500, Joel Connor wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 6 Jul 2010 01:35:19 +0000 (UTC), (E-Mail Removed) (Mike S.)
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> In article<(E-Mail Removed) >, Joel Connor
>>> <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> There's a new type of 1.25v AA battery on the market, using a Lithium
>>>> Polymer configuration (not unlike the flat-pack in my MP3 player, but
>>>> at a different voltage) marketed by a company name of Hahnel.
>>>>
>>>> A quick cursory search for reviews and discussions seem favorable. With
>>>> good low-temperature performance down to 23° F (-5° C), fast charging
>>>> times, etc.
>>>>
>>>> Anyone here ever use them and care to comment?

>>
>>
>>> No experience, but your teaser sparked me interest and I looked around.
>>> Unfortunately, the only product under this brand/model I can find is a
>>> pre-charged NiMH cell ... even at the manufacturer's website
>>> (http://www.hahnel.ie/index.cfm/page/aamignonbatteries).
>>>
>>> Can you post a reference to a Li-Poly AA product?
>>>
>>>

>> I'm getting conflicting information between ads and posts I've read.
>> Such as this one from amazon.co.uk
>>
>> <http://www.amazon.co.uk/Hahnel-Synergy-AA-Rechargeable-Batteries/dp/B000LY25WQ/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1278381027&sr =8-2>
>> which states:
>>
>> "Product Description
>> hahnel Synergy batteries offer a number of advantages over traditional
>> alkaline batteries, including up to four times more power when used in a
>> digital camera, high performance even at low temperatures (down to 23
>> degrees F) during your winter holiday, and a vast cost savings in the
>> long run. The Synergy advantages are even more glaring when compared to
>> typical NiMH batteries: not only are they ready for use right out of the
>> packet, but they generally last longer than most NiMH batteries
>> (continuous and frequent recharging can destroy other NiMH models) and
>> save both time and money (traditional NiMH charging is slow when you're
>> in a hurry, while rapid chargers are expensive). All told, you can
>> recharge these batteries up to 500 times without experiencing a memory
>> effect; just charge the amount you need and you're set."
>>
>> Most are claiming a typical NiMH chemistry. One I had read claiming
>> Li-Poly (and can't find that thread now). It could be I read that page
>> too fast and confused it for a Li-Poly chemistry. Which had me wondering
>> because Lithium chemistry will define 3.7v. Though I couldn't figure out
>> how they got 1.25v base voltage from HiMH chemistry either.
>>
>> Then there's also the "Mignon" (not Synergy) brand name from Hahnel that
>> also claims NiMH chemistry.

>
> Oh, and Mignon is not a brand name.
> It's just another name for "AA battery".


There appear to be two "Synergy" battery product lines, one produced by
Hahnel in Germany and the other by Synergy Digital in Brooklyn, NY. The
Hahnel product appears to be an Eneloop clone while Synergy appears to
be importing Chinese-clone OEM-replacement camera batteries.


 
Reply With Quote
 
Robert Sneddon
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      07-06-2010
In message <(E-Mail Removed)>, J. Clarke
<(E-Mail Removed)> writes
>
>There appear to be two "Synergy" battery product lines, one produced by
>Hahnel in Germany and the other by Synergy Digital in Brooklyn, NY.
>The Hahnel product appears to be an Eneloop clone while Synergy appears
>to be importing Chinese-clone OEM-replacement camera batteries.


The Sanyo Eneloop low-discharge NiMH battery technology is being
licenced more widely nowadays. Initially such cells were sold by
name-brand battery manufacturers such as Rayovac's "Hybrio" or
Panasonic's "Infinium". Nowadays I'm seeing more and more online
suppliers of tech gear such as the British-based Maplin stores offering
similar low-discharge cells with their own branding (in Maplin's case
they're called Camelion). I'm guessing that the Synergy cells mentioned
are the same as everybody else's, run off a single production line and
only labelled at the end to differentiate them from the other people
selling such batteries.
--
To reply, my gmail address is nojay1 Robert Sneddon
 
Reply With Quote
 
SMS
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      07-06-2010
On 06/07/10 3:53 AM, Robert Spanjaard wrote:

<snip>

> Oh, and Mignon is not a brand name.
> It's just another name for "AA battery".


I prefer to call the rechargeable AA's HR6 and the non-rechargeable AA's
LR6. Mignon (which is the French term for an AA battery) is too vague.

While there are rechargeable Li-Po and Li-Ion cells that are the
physical size of an R6 cell, (14500), the chemistry yields 3.6-3.7
volts. There are some devices that can use them because they have a
DC-DC converter with a very wide input range, but I've never known a
digital camera that could use them. Even "regular" AA batteries vary
significantly based on chemistry, from 1.2V to 1.7V, so there has to be
some accommodation built in.

There's no real advantage in terms of WH capacity of the 14500 Li-Ion
and Li-Po cells (versus NiMH), and when sold as an end-user product each
cell needs it's own protection circuitry built in (as opposed to one set
of protection circuitry for a multi-cell Li-Ion/Li-Po battery pack). You
do get the advantage of the low-temperature performance. Of course you
need a charger that's capable of charging them as well, since a NiMH
charger won't work.

The issue is rather moot these days as so few cameras still use AA
batteries, only the very low end P&S models and a few super-zoom P&S
models. You can use AA batteries in a lot of D-SLR battery grips, but
the performance of Li-Ion batteries is so much better that you'd rarely
do such a thing. Even the "ITMONW" rationalization is rather moot
because when you come across that 7-11 in the middle of nowhere and buy
R6 manganese batteries, they work poorly in digital cameras because of
their high internal resistance.

I suppose someone could make a 14500 lithium based cell than had an
internal buck-boost converter/charger so it could have a 1.5V output and
be chargeable in a NiMH charger, but that would be a pretty ridiculous
project.
 
Reply With Quote
 
Mike S.
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      07-06-2010

In article <4c33338e$0$22122$(E-Mail Removed)>,
SMS <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>On 06/07/10 3:53 AM, Robert Spanjaard wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>> Oh, and Mignon is not a brand name.
>> It's just another name for "AA battery".

>
>I prefer to call the rechargeable AA's HR6 and the non-rechargeable AA's
>LR6. Mignon (which is the French term for an AA battery) is too vague.
>
>While there are rechargeable Li-Po and Li-Ion cells that are the
>physical size of an R6 cell, (14500), the chemistry yields 3.6-3.7
>volts. There are some devices that can use them because they have a
>DC-DC converter with a very wide input range, but I've never known a
>digital camera that could use them. Even "regular" AA batteries vary
>significantly based on chemistry, from 1.2V to 1.7V, so there has to be
>some accommodation built in.
>
>There's no real advantage in terms of WH capacity of the 14500 Li-Ion
>and Li-Po cells (versus NiMH), and when sold as an end-user product each
>cell needs it's own protection circuitry built in (as opposed to one set
>of protection circuitry for a multi-cell Li-Ion/Li-Po battery pack). You
>do get the advantage of the low-temperature performance. Of course you
>need a charger that's capable of charging them as well, since a NiMH
>charger won't work.
>
>The issue is rather moot these days as so few cameras still use AA
>batteries, only the very low end P&S models and a few super-zoom P&S
>models. You can use AA batteries in a lot of D-SLR battery grips, but
>the performance of Li-Ion batteries is so much better that you'd rarely
>do such a thing. Even the "ITMONW" rationalization is rather moot
>because when you come across that 7-11 in the middle of nowhere and buy
>R6 manganese batteries, they work poorly in digital cameras because of
>their high internal resistance.
>
>I suppose someone could make a 14500 lithium based cell than had an
>internal buck-boost converter/charger so it could have a 1.5V output and
>be chargeable in a NiMH charger, but that would be a pretty ridiculous
>project.


My interest in this type of product is for electronic flash. For instance,
the external flash for my Olympus uses two AA cells. It also takes CR-V3
primary packs, which deliver much better performance. Unfortunately the
RCR-V3 (which is basically two 14500's in parallel with special circuit to
make it look like two AA's in series) are disappointing. Not only do
reviewers say they last no longer than NiMH, but they can't deliver the
current necessary to charge a flash and end up dying after the first shot.

I was hopnig the product described here might be better, but it seems they
are not what they were described as being.



 
Reply With Quote
 
SMS
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      07-06-2010
On 06/07/10 7:37 AM, Mike S. wrote:

<snip>

> My interest in this type of product is for electronic flash. For instance,
> the external flash for my Olympus uses two AA cells. It also takes CR-V3
> primary packs, which deliver much better performance. Unfortunately the
> RCR-V3 (which is basically two 14500's in parallel with special circuit to
> make it look like two AA's in series) are disappointing. Not only do
> reviewers say they last no longer than NiMH, but they can't deliver the
> current necessary to charge a flash and end up dying after the first shot.
>
> I was hopnig the product described here might be better, but it seems they
> are not what they were described as being.


Unfortunately there's no such animal as li-ion or li-po R6 battery, and
unlikely to be one.

To me it's annoying to have to use AA batteries for the flash, and BP511
Li-Ion packs for the camera. I could use AA batteries in the grip, but
AA NiMH performance is much worse than BP511 performance, and in reality
the NiMH batteries are no cheaper because BP511 packs are so widely
available at such low prics. I wish Canon had made their later flashes
able to use a BP511 or four AA cells. If it can work with four Lithium
non-rechargeables at 4 x 1.7V = 6.8V then it could certainly have been
made to work at the 7.4V of a BP511.

I don't know what they did to the the RCR-V3 to limit the current to the
point that it can't deliver enough current to charge the flash since
there's no inherent reason that a 14500 could not deliver enough
current. I use eneloops in my flash, but it's rather annoying to have to
carry two different chargers. OTOH I would have an AA charger along for
other devices anyway on most trips.
 
Reply With Quote
 
Joel Connor
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      07-06-2010
On Tue, 06 Jul 2010 08:12:48 -0700, SMS <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>On 06/07/10 7:37 AM, Mike S. wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>> My interest in this type of product is for electronic flash. For instance,
>> the external flash for my Olympus uses two AA cells. It also takes CR-V3
>> primary packs, which deliver much better performance. Unfortunately the
>> RCR-V3 (which is basically two 14500's in parallel with special circuit to
>> make it look like two AA's in series) are disappointing. Not only do
>> reviewers say they last no longer than NiMH, but they can't deliver the
>> current necessary to charge a flash and end up dying after the first shot.
>>
>> I was hopnig the product described here might be better, but it seems they
>> are not what they were described as being.

>
>Unfortunately there's no such animal as li-ion or li-po R6 battery, and
>unlikely to be one.
>
>To me it's annoying to have to use AA batteries for the flash, and BP511
>Li-Ion packs for the camera. I could use AA batteries in the grip, but
>AA NiMH performance is much worse than BP511 performance, and in reality
>the NiMH batteries are no cheaper because BP511 packs are so widely
>available at such low prics. I wish Canon had made their later flashes
>able to use a BP511 or four AA cells. If it can work with four Lithium
>non-rechargeables at 4 x 1.7V = 6.8V then it could certainly have been
>made to work at the 7.4V of a BP511.
>
>I don't know what they did to the the RCR-V3 to limit the current to the
>point that it can't deliver enough current to charge the flash since
>there's no inherent reason that a 14500 could not deliver enough
>current. I use eneloops in my flash, but it's rather annoying to have to
>carry two different chargers. OTOH I would have an AA charger along for
>other devices anyway on most trips.


Now that we've gotten all of pretend-photographer troll SMS's vibrator
power-source information out of the way ...

Has anyone used these particular batteries in their cameras and do they
live up to their claims?

 
Reply With Quote
 
SMS
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      07-06-2010
On 06/07/10 6:21 AM, Robert Sneddon wrote:
> In message<(E-Mail Removed)>, J. Clarke
> <(E-Mail Removed)> writes
>>
>> There appear to be two "Synergy" battery product lines, one produced by
>> Hahnel in Germany and the other by Synergy Digital in Brooklyn, NY.
>> The Hahnel product appears to be an Eneloop clone while Synergy appears
>> to be importing Chinese-clone OEM-replacement camera batteries.

>
> The Sanyo Eneloop low-discharge NiMH battery technology is being
> licenced more widely nowadays.


Is it being licensed or are other companies just building their
batteries in a similar manner? What Sanyo did with the eneloop product
is not rocket science--the technology for reducing self-discharge in
Nickel based batteries is not new.

The problem is that same design changes that reduce self-discharge also
reduce capacity, and we were seeing something similar to megapixel wars
with mAH wars. People just got fed up enough with self-discharge that
they were willing to go with eneloop AA cells at 2000mAH versus regular
NiMH AA cells which have up to 50% greater capacity.

While the eneloop, and other low self-discharge cells, solve one of the
major problems with NiMH cells, they still have most of the drawbacks of
AA cells in general, and NiMH cells in particular.

More information is available at "http://batterydata.com/".
 
Reply With Quote
 
Robert Sneddon
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      07-06-2010
In message <4c339148$0$22110$(E-Mail Removed)>, SMS
<(E-Mail Removed)> writes
>On 06/07/10 6:21 AM, Robert Sneddon wrote:


>> The Sanyo Eneloop low-discharge NiMH battery technology is being
>> licenced more widely nowadays.

>
>Is it being licensed or are other companies just building their
>batteries in a similar manner?


AFAIK Sanyo has patents on the methods of making the electrodes and
internal support structures that reduce the self-discharge rate
significantly. Unless the other manufacturers have arranged licencing
then they are open to lawsuits for infringement or they have twiddled
their designs sufficiently to avoid the legal problems. I've not heard
anything one way or another.

> What Sanyo did with the eneloop product is not rocket science--the
>technology for reducing self-discharge in Nickel based batteries is not
>new.


Patent lifespan is 19 years as I recall -- I don't remember seeing low
-discharge-rate Ni-chemistry cells on the market before much before
2005.

>The problem is that same design changes that reduce self-discharge also
>reduce capacity, and we were seeing something similar to megapixel wars
>with mAH wars. People just got fed up enough with self-discharge that
>they were willing to go with eneloop AA cells at 2000mAH versus regular
>NiMH AA cells which have up to 50% greater capacity.


I've used high-capacity Ni-chemistry cells in the past but I noticed
that their self-discharge tended to obviate the claimed extra capacity
unless I was incredibly diligent about charging them immediately before
use. In addition the increased capacity never seemed to survive more
than a dozen or two dozen recharge cycles. I used (and still use) simple
Ni-battery chargers with limited intelligence which probably didn't
help. The charge retention of the Eneloops and their successors are a
great convenience and I make up for the more limited capacity by
carrying a spare set of similar low-discharge cells along with me. Maybe
higher-capacity versions of the 1st-gen technology will appear in the
future, who knows?
>
>While the eneloop, and other low self-discharge cells, solve one of the
>major problems with NiMH cells, they still have most of the drawbacks
>of AA cells in general, and NiMH cells in particular.


Still better than Li-chemistry cells with their high self-discharge
rate, generally limited operating lifespan and their finicky charging
and temperature requirements. They also don't store well -- I bought a
laptop once, surplus but still sealed in its box and unopened. The
brand-new Li battery pack was dead on arrival, failing to take a charge.
The battery pack had a date code on the case indicating it had been
built only two years before. Conversely low-discharge N-MH cells come
precharged and work well even after being stored for over a year as
tests have proved, with (as I recall) 70% of measured capacity.

As a data point my first set of Eneloops AA cells are at least three
years old and still doing sterling service regardless of what kind of
cheap Ni-chemistry charger I put them in. I have a plethora of
Li-chemistry batteries for my phone, laptop, one of my cameras etc. and
they all need their own special charging units since there is no
"universal" Li-ion battery pack for such commodity devices. Worst case
out in the field I can swap out my AA and AAA Ni-MH batteries for
alkalines from a local store, something that is not possible with most
units powered by Li-chemistry cells.

>More information is available at "http://batterydata.com/".


That's your vanity website, yes?
--
To reply, my gmail address is nojay1 Robert Sneddon
 
Reply With Quote
 
 
 
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Batteries Charger VS Batteries capacity boulay.patrick@gmail.com Digital Photography 15 11-25-2006 05:42 AM
Anyone try those e2 energizer batteries? Waste of money!!! Big Daddy Digital Photography 4 09-03-2004 06:21 AM
Does anyone know anything about the reliability of Digital Concepts Nimh batteries and charger? Renee Digital Photography 2 05-21-2004 08:45 PM
Anyone tried these Batteries? Ken Zenachon Digital Photography 4 01-07-2004 03:10 AM



Advertisments