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On Fri, 02 Jul 2010 12:07:33 -0700, John Nagle wrote:

>> I think one point which needs to be emphasized more is what does
>> python 3 bring to people. The" what's new in python 3 page" gives
>> the impression that python 3 is about removing cruft. That's a very
>> poor argument to push people to switch.
>
> That's the real issue, not parentheses on the "print" statement.
> Where's the business case for moving to Python 3?

If you're going to be doing a lot of Unicode text processing, I would
expect that using Python 3 would make the task somewhat simpler.

On Fri, 02 Jul 2010 22:40:34 -0700
John Nagle <> wrote:
> Not according to Vex's published package list:
>
> http://www.vex.net/info/tech/pkglist/

As it says on that page it may not be up to date. Look at the
generated list link. I guess I should update the static page as well.

> "vex.net" isn't exactly a major hosting service.

OK, I'll give you that. It is on the backbone of the net at 151 Front
Street in Toronto, has almost 100% uptime and uses high speed servers
but we don't have 15 layers of bureaucracy between the owner and the
user and I certainly know of no "real" hosting provider that invites
all their clients out for dinner once a year. And how can we be a real
ISP when the president knows most of his clients on a first name basis?

I know what being "major" means to the owners and stockholders but what
features of being major matter to the client?

--
D'Arcy J.M. Cain <> | Democracy is three wolves
http://www.druid.net/darcy/ | and a sheep voting on
+1 416 425 1212 (DoD#0082) (eNTP) | what's for dinner.

On Fri, 02 Jul 2010 22:40:34 -0700
John Nagle <> wrote:
> Not according to Vex's published package list:
>
> http://www.vex.net/info/tech/pkglist/

Hold on. That *is* the generated list and Python 3.1 is on it. We
have both 2.6 and 3.1. The 3.1 version is listed right below the 2.6
one. The page is generated from pkg_info(1) and includes everything we
have installed from FreeBSD ports.

--
D'Arcy J.M. Cain <> | Democracy is three wolves
http://www.druid.net/darcy/ | and a sheep voting on
+1 416 425 1212 (DoD#0082) (eNTP) | what's for dinner.

On Sat, 03 Jul 2010 08:46:57 -0400, D'Arcy J.M. Cain wrote:

> On Fri, 02 Jul 2010 22:40:34 -0700
> John Nagle <> wrote:
>> Not according to Vex's published package list:
>>
>> http://www.vex.net/info/tech/pkglist/
>
> Hold on. That *is* the generated list and Python 3.1 is on it. We have
> both 2.6 and 3.1. The 3.1 version is listed right below the 2.6 one.
> The page is generated from pkg_info(1) and includes everything we have
> installed from FreeBSD ports.

Pfft! Facts! You can prove anything you like with facts!


--
Steven

* Steven D'Aprano, on 03.07.2010 16:24:
> On Sat, 03 Jul 2010 08:46:57 -0400, D'Arcy J.M. Cain wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 02 Jul 2010 22:40:34 -0700
>> John Nagle<> wrote:
>>> Not according to Vex's published package list:
>>>
>>> http://www.vex.net/info/tech/pkglist/
>>
>> Hold on. That *is* the generated list and Python 3.1 is on it. We have
>> both 2.6 and 3.1. The 3.1 version is listed right below the 2.6 one.
>> The page is generated from pkg_info(1) and includes everything we have
>> installed from FreeBSD ports.
>
> Pfft! Facts! You can prove anything you like with facts!



--
blog at <url: http://alfps.wordpress.com>

In article <mailman.192.1278160797.1673.python->,
D'Arcy J.M. Cain <> wrote:
>On Fri, 02 Jul 2010 22:40:34 -0700
>John Nagle <> wrote:
>>
>> "vex.net" isn't exactly a major hosting service.
>
>OK, I'll give you that. It is on the backbone of the net at 151 Front
>Street in Toronto, has almost 100% uptime and uses high speed servers
>but we don't have 15 layers of bureaucracy between the owner and the
>user and I certainly know of no "real" hosting provider that invites
>all their clients out for dinner once a year. And how can we be a real
>ISP when the president knows most of his clients on a first name basis?

vex.net is Canada's Panix.
--
Aahz () <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"If you don't know what your program is supposed to do, you'd better not
start writing it." --Dijkstra

On 03 Jul 2010 14:24:49 GMT
Steven D'Aprano <> wrote:
> Pfft! Facts! You can prove anything you like with facts!

Argumentum ad Dragnet?

--
D'Arcy J.M. Cain <> | Democracy is three wolves
http://www.druid.net/darcy/ | and a sheep voting on
+1 416 425 1212 (DoD#0082) (eNTP) | what's for dinner.

On 7/3/2010 5:46 AM, D'Arcy J.M. Cain wrote:
> On Fri, 02 Jul 2010 22:40:34 -0700
> John Nagle<> wrote:
>> Not according to Vex's published package list:
>>
>> http://www.vex.net/info/tech/pkglist/
>
> Hold on. That *is* the generated list and Python 3.1 is on it. We
> have both 2.6 and 3.1. The 3.1 version is listed right below the 2.6
> one. The page is generated from pkg_info(1) and includes everything we
> have installed from FreeBSD ports.

The base Python 3.1 is installed there, but without any modules.
Below is the list of Python 2.6 modules installed. Search that
page for "py3", and you get nothing.

On a hosting service, a raw Python with none of those modules isn't
very useful.

This is what I mean about Python 3 not being ready for prime time.

John Nagle

Python packages on Vex:

py26-MySQLdb-1.2.2 Access a MySQL database through Python
py26-PyGreSQL-4.0,1 A Python interface to PostgreSQL, both classic and
DP-API 2.0
py26-gdbm-2.6.4 Python bindings to the GNU dbm library
py26-psycopg-1.1.21_1 The high performance Python adapter for PostgreSQL
py26-pyPgSQL-2.5.1_3 A Python DB-API 2 compliant library for using
PostgreSQL databases
py26-rrdtool_lgpl-1.0b1 Python interface to RRDTool, the graphing and
logging utility
py26-sqlite3-2.6.4_1 Standard Python binding to the SQLite3 library
py26-asn1-0.0.9a_1 ASN.1 toolkit for Python
py26-cElementTree-1.0.5_1 A fast C implementation of the ElementTree API
py26-cheetah-2.2.1 HTML template engine for Python
py26-elementtree-1.2.6_1 Container for hierarchical data structures
written in Python
py26-setuptools-0.6c11 Download, build, install, upgrade, and uninstall
Python packages
py26-statgrab-0.5 A set of Python bindings for libstatgrab
py26-twisted-8.2.0 Metaport of Twisted, an event-driven networking engine
py26-twistedCore-8.2.0 An asynchronous networking framework for Python -
Core module
py26-twistedFlow-8.0.0 Generator based asynchronous result flows
py26-twistedRunner-8.2.0 Runner has process management, including an
inetd replacement
py26-zopeInterface-3.5.2 Zope.interface package from Zope 3
py26-twistedMail-8.2.0 An SMTP, IMAP and POP protocol implementation
with clients and servers
py26-twistedPair-8.0.0 Twisted Pair can do low level TCP work

py26-twistedWords-8.2.0 Twisted Words has more chat than you can handle

py26-snmp-3.4.4 SNMP framework for Python
py26-twistedSNMP-0.3.13 Twisted Python framework for doing SNMP stuff
news
py26-twistedNews-8.2.0 An NNTP protocol implementation with client and
server
py26-fail2ban-0.8.3_2 scans log files and bans IP that makes too many
password failures.
py26-openssl-0.8_1 Python interface to the OpenSSL library
py26-paramiko-1.7.6 A python library for making SSH2 connections
py26-posix1e-0.4.0 Python module for manipulating POSIX.1e ACLs
py26-pycrack-0.5.1 Python bindings to cracklib
py26-pycrypto-2.1.0_1 The Python Cryptography Toolkit
py26-twistedConch-8.2.0 An SSH and SFTP protocol implementation with
clients and servers
py26-docutils-0.5 Python Documentation Utilities
py26-dsv-1.4.0 A Python module to parse or write delimeter-separated
(e.g. CSV) files
py26-twistedLore-8.2.0 Documentation generator with HTML and LaTeX support
py26-xml-0.8.4_2 PyXML: Python XML library enhancements
py26-cherrypy-3.1.2 A pythonic, object-oriented web development framework
py26-django-1.1.1 High-level Python Web framework
py26-flup-1.0.2 Random assortment of WSGI servers, middleware
py26-twistedWeb-8.2.0 An HTTP protocol implementation together with
clients and servers
py26-twistedWeb2-8.1.0 The next generation Web Server Framework built
with Twisted

On Sat, 03 Jul 2010 09:48:09 -0700
John Nagle <> wrote:
> The base Python 3.1 is installed there, but without any modules.

We install modules as clients ask for them. No one has yet requested a
Python 3 module.

> On a hosting service, a raw Python with none of those modules isn't
> very useful.

Well, it isn't useless.

--
D'Arcy J.M. Cain <> | Democracy is three wolves
http://www.druid.net/darcy/ | and a sheep voting on
+1 416 425 1212 (DoD#0082) (eNTP) | what's for dinner.

On 2 Jul, 21:07, John Nagle <na...@animats.com> wrote:

> http://jens.mooseyard.com/2008/12/py...ats-the-point/

He is right on. The only thing Python 3k will do for me, is break all
my code and be incompatible with all extension modules I need. "What's
the point?" indeed.