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Community (A Modest Proposal)

 
 
rantingrick
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      06-13-2010

-------------------------
Where is the community?
-------------------------

I think the Python community is broken. I think we don't really "have"
a community. It's more like a handful of negitive people at the top
and every one else is chopped liver.

Just today i saw another chance to contribute code to Python's stdlib,
but then that nagging feeling of "Whats the use, these people are just
going to discredit you and never accept code from you just because
they hate you". Sadly though the only damage is done to Python.

For those who are not aware my very first post to c.l.p (and Usenet)
was about 1.5 years ago. At that time i saw a void that Python could
fill nicely as a simple scripting language for an very quickly
advancing 3D modeling application (Google SketchUp). (You can search
the archives for a thread called..."Help, Google SketchUp needs a
Python API" if you are interested.)

So i my first thought was to find out if anyone was interested in
starting this project up. So i posted my ideas and to my complete and
utter surprise i was lynched by the Python community as a heretic...."
How dare you ask other people to help do what you should be doing
yourself "... well that was the "Sunday school" version of the
responses i received. I was discredited and mobbed for no apparent
reason except that i had the balls to ask the question in the first
place. I was only looking to get feedback, but the endless hoards
insisted that "they" new my intentions better than *I*.

Why was the reaction so negative? Well i will admit some fault in the
fact that i trashed Ruby pretty bad. I felt everything i said was true
IMO then as is now (mostly). People should have a right to opinions.
However since i was such an "unknown" and you could say a "newbie",
was this reaction warranted? I think not, and it speaks volumes to the
negative attitudes within this community.

This brings me to a new question. How many really exceptional Python
programmers have been left out OR pushed out because of the extreme
narcissism of the "core" python group. And when i say "core" i am
speaking of the handful of people who hang out here discrediting and
mobbing anybody they see as a threat to their superiority. They clutch
to power like a hated dictator because that is all they have left.

You people need to get a life, drop your narcissistic attitudes and be
more helpful, friendly, and welcoming to the wider world. This
community is not a community, its a "Cosa Nostra". Your predator like
behaviors are bleeding the spirit of Python's community. This
community does not belong to you or me or even GvR, we all share an
equal piece. And no matter how much, or little, each of use
contribute, we all share an equally divided peice.

I have spoken with "other" Python programmers (far more advanced than
myself) who echo this sentiment. However unlike me they cannot afford
to sacrifice their image to this group, EVEN if the group is at fault!
However this behavior is causing Python to suffer from lack of diverse
developers, and shrinks the pool of those who wish to participate.

But i'll tell you one thing, you will never bleed me dry because i am
stronger than all! I will be a thorn in your sides every time you pick
on a newbie. I will point out every negative comment you make, it will
not be hidden as you like. Whether i am accepted or assassinated i
will create an irreversible butterfly affect that no organization of
negativity can endure. I will bring some positive attitudes to this
group if it's the last thing i do! That will be my contribution to
this group, and it may just save the Python community as a whole!





 
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Jack Diederich
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Posts: n/a
 
      06-13-2010
On Sat, Jun 12, 2010 at 11:09 PM, rantingrick <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
> -------------------------
> *Where is the community?
> -------------------------

[snip]
>
> You people need to get a life, drop your narcissistic attitudes and be
> more helpful, friendly, and welcoming to the wider world. This
> community is not a community, its a "Cosa Nostra". Your predator like
> behaviors are bleeding the spirit of Python's community. This
> community does not belong to you or me or even GvR, we all share an
> equal piece. And no matter how much, or little, each of use
> contribute, we all share an equally divided peice.
>
> I have spoken with "other" Python programmers (far more advanced than
> myself) who echo this sentiment. However unlike me they cannot afford
> to sacrifice their image to this group, EVEN if the group is at fault!
> However this behavior is causing Python to suffer from lack of diverse
> developers, and shrinks the pool of those who wish to participate.
>
> But i'll tell you one thing, you will never bleed me dry because i am
> stronger than all! I will be a thorn in your sides every time you pick
> on a newbie. I will point out every negative comment you make, it will
> not be hidden as you like. Whether i am accepted or assassinated i
> will create an irreversible butterfly affect that no organization of
> negativity can endure. I will bring some positive attitudes to this
> group if it's the last thing i do! That will be my contribution to
> this group, and it may just save the Python community as a whole!


8/10 on the troll scale. Handsome work.

You are aware that python has over 120 core commiters - which is quite
large for a project of our size. To put it differently: at a typical
PyCon any random lunch table will have someone with a commit bit
sitting at it. 900 people are listed in Misc/ACKS which is lower than
the real number because people frequently forget to include it in
their patch (or are too modest to do so).

Furthermore the PSF now has an active program to get more people
involved with core development. A combination of money and volunteer
time is being spent on encouraging would-be contributors to do so.

In various threads you haven't met the minimum qualifications to be
taken seriously: you have contributed no code, don't even bother to
use something that looks like a real name, and continually demand that
volunteers (which we all are) write code to fulfill your speculative
needs.

If-it-walks-like-a-troll-and-smells-like-a-troll-it's-a-troll-ly,

-Jack
 
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James Mills
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Posts: n/a
 
      06-13-2010
On Sun, Jun 13, 2010 at 1:57 PM, Jack Diederich <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> On Sat, Jun 12, 2010 at 11:09 PM, rantingrick <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>
>> -------------------------
>> *Where is the community?
>> -------------------------

> [snip]


[snip]

> In various threads you haven't met the minimum qualifications to be
> taken seriously: you have contributed no code, don't even bother to
> use something that looks like a real name, and continually demand that
> volunteers (which we all are) write code to fulfill your speculative
> needs.


I'm sorry Rick (if that's even your name), I have to agree with Jack.

Nobody really enjoys or even cares (or likes) people that complain
and contribute nothing. I have read (and I believe was partly involved
with your thread 1.5 years ago or so) and well it seemed you were
only interested in finding out if "others" were willing to put "their time"
and effort into doing the work.

Also I should point out that no-one is going to take you seriously
when you publically point out your 1.5 years experience in using
(what projects have you actively worked on and contributed to?) Python.

Have a nice day,

cheers
James
 
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Cameron Simpson
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Posts: n/a
 
      06-13-2010
On 12Jun2010 20:09, rantingrick <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
| I think the Python community is broken. I think we don't really "have"
| a community. It's more like a handful of negitive people at the top
| and every one else is chopped liver.

Hmm. I think this is an overreaction. I must be chopped liver myself,
though I've rarely felt outright rejected here.

Of course, me not being part of the core" and all, everything below is
merely my opinion.

| Just today i saw another chance to contribute code to Python's stdlib,
| but then that nagging feeling of "Whats the use, these people are just
| going to discredit you and never accept code from you just because
| they hate you". Sadly though the only damage is done to Python.

The stdlib isn't where code should start.

Code should start on your machine, probably then post to
http://pypi.python.org/pypi when it's usable (and, in your opinion at
least, _useful_) if you want others to have easy access.

Stuff for the stdlib needs to serve a widely felt need, solve the
problem in a well defined way and be both clean in interface and
practially bugfree. This is because _everyone_ who uses python gets a
copy of the stdlib and should be able to rely on it totally for what
facilities it does provide.

| For those who are not aware my very first post to c.l.p (and Usenet)
| was about 1.5 years ago. At that time i saw a void that Python could
| fill nicely as a simple scripting language for an very quickly
| advancing 3D modeling application (Google SketchUp). (You can search
| the archives for a thread called..."Help, Google SketchUp needs a
| Python API" if you are interested.)

A direct link to the start of thread would have been nice... Anyway,
I've just searched it out and read chunk of it.

Your enthusiasm is encouraging, but you _do_ start by bagging Ruby and
saying nobody can find it easy to use. This is clearly false given how
many people like it so much - it certainly appears very succinct to my
eye from the examples I've seen, and it _will_ appeal strong to people
of a mathematical bent and likely fans of functional languages.

Then as the thread progresses you rant somewhat about how nobdy is
jumping in to join your quest to bring Python to SketchUp, and complain
that nobody is prepared to advocate for python in another arena.

You're doing this wrong:

- you need to produce a prototyple yourself first, however small

- you need to not bag out Ruby, especially if you're going to
go and repeat the exercise in the existing Ruby-centric list

- you need to _not_ expect help on your pet project here in python-list;
the place you're going to find SketchUp enthusiasts is the SketchUp list,
not here; go and ask "can someone help me make a Python API paralleling
the Ruby API" _there_!


| So i my first thought was to find out if anyone was interested in
| starting this project up. So i posted my ideas and to my complete and
| utter surprise i was lynched by the Python community as a heretic...."
| How dare you ask other people to help do what you should be doing
| yourself "... well that was the "Sunday school" version of the
| responses i received. I was discredited and mobbed for no apparent
| reason except that i had the balls to ask the question in the first
| place. I was only looking to get feedback, but the endless hoards
| insisted that "they" new my intentions better than *I*.

I've read some of these responses. You're misreading things, or coming
with unrealistic expectations.

You did get a "put up of shut up" response; this was blunt, but you
really do need to bring stuff to the party yourself. There are many many
people who think "something should be done" for a variety of somethings.
But for your pet "something" you must provide a start of your own; my
incomplete scan of the thread suggests that _here_, in c.l.p/python-list,
you are the sole SketchUp scripting enthusiast.
So you should be looking for supporters there, not here.

| Why was the reaction so negative? Well i will admit some fault in the
| fact that i trashed Ruby pretty bad. I felt everything i said was true
| IMO then as is now (mostly). People should have a right to opinions.
| However since i was such an "unknown" and you could say a "newbie",
| was this reaction warranted? I think not, and it speaks volumes to the
| negative attitudes within this community.

No, it speaks volumes to your expectations. c.l.p is, in my experience,
an _extremely_ civil group. Occasionally blunt, but almost invariably
willing to listen to reason and examples, and to critique examples.
In this list there is a very strong ethic (for want of a word) for use
cases as justification for "need".

So in this instance I would expect you to start in the SketchUp group
and find someone to help you write an API, even as a layer that calls
the Ruby API.

In c.l.p, I would think it reasonable to come here and say
"I have this code [href to code, or inline small snippet reproducing the
issue" and I can't find enough Python expertise in the SketchUp list to
solve this problem".

It is _not_ reasonable to expect non-SketchUp users to make you an API
or to go to the SketchUp list to support you.

Python advocacy seems to be by example, not cheerleading.

| This brings me to a new question. How many really exceptional Python
| programmers have been left out OR pushed out because of the extreme
| narcissism of the "core" python group. And when i say "core" i am
| speaking of the handful of people who hang out here discrediting and
| mobbing anybody they see as a threat to their superiority. They clutch
| to power like a hated dictator because that is all they have left.
|
| You people need to get a life, drop your narcissistic attitudes and be
| more helpful, friendly, and welcoming to the wider world. This
| community is not a community, its a "Cosa Nostra". Your predator like
| behaviors are bleeding the spirit of Python's community. This
| community does not belong to you or me or even GvR, we all share an
| equal piece. And no matter how much, or little, each of use
| contribute, we all share an equally divided peice.

Bah.

Your supposed "community" is a discussion place for people with Python
interest. A co-operative anarchy, like a lot of things. It is not a
club or other formal grouping.

Aside from the core devs of the language implementors and the real
maintainer of the various library packages, everyone else is here to
have on-topic, usually technical, discussions about python. _Nobody_
is under an obligation to assist. Complaining because others don't share
your particular itch _will_ get you negative responses.

| I have spoken with "other" Python programmers (far more advanced than
| myself) who echo this sentiment. However unlike me they cannot afford
| to sacrifice their image to this group, EVEN if the group is at fault!
| However this behavior is causing Python to suffer from lack of diverse
| developers, and shrinks the pool of those who wish to participate.
|
| But i'll tell you one thing, you will never bleed me dry because i am
| stronger than all! I will be a thorn in your sides every time you pick
| on a newbie. I will point out every negative comment you make, it will
| not be hidden as you like.

You don't need to need to hide; list members can killfile you as they
see fit, and not be particularly bothered. Their choice

| Whether i am accepted or assassinated i
| will create an irreversible butterfly affect that no organization of
| negativity can endure. I will bring some positive attitudes to this
| group if it's the last thing i do! That will be my contribution to
| this group, and it may just save the Python community as a whole!

Hmm. Your efforts are misdirected. It would be better to devote your
energies to implementing something useful, such as your API.

Other list members surely have enough on their plates; I don't have enough
time to work on my own stuff, and I don't even have a life! Nobody needs
to do this stuff for you unless they personally want the same thing.

Cheers,
--
Cameron Simpson <(E-Mail Removed)> DoD#743
http://www.cskk.ezoshosting.com/cs/

Weakness is a better teacher than strength. Weakness must learn to
understand the obstacles that strength brushes aside. - Mason Cooley
 
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Aahz
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      06-13-2010
In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
rantingrick <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>I will bring some positive attitudes to this group if it's the last
>thing i do!


"Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then
shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye."
--
Aahz ((E-Mail Removed)) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"If you don't know what your program is supposed to do, you'd better not
start writing it." --Dijkstra
 
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Stephen Hansen
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      06-13-2010
I call bullshit.

The Python community is vibrant, accessible, and willing to endure far
more then anyone has any right to expect when people come to it for help.

The community seems willing to explain fundamental concepts to newbies
over, and over, and over again; to go out of their way, time and again,
to spend countless man-hours showing newbies how to think in Python, how
to be successful in Python, how to excel in Python.

It does expect something from those coming to it for aide; it expects
the seeker to disclose the problem in a complete, clear manner, with
real code and errors, with clear questions; and then it goes out of its
way to explain what all is going on, and how to approach the problem in
a Pythonic way.

And when the newbies fail to show even the vaguest level of
due-diligence (let alone, ability to simply Google a problem), the
community doesn't call them idiots, doesn't tell them to RTFM and GFYS,
but explains again, how best to ask a question, what to include so that
we can help you best, and then try to find a solution, even when the
community is dubious of the intent of the asker.

Why do people respond poorly to you?

Because you don't just argue a point of view.

You don't argue a position; you don't support it with facts, logic,
reason. You start immediately into this emotional rhetoric,
pseudo-inspirational nonsense which just comes off as inane. It's like a
bad cross between a politician and an self-help speaker, and the crux of
your arguments are focused on that emotional charge-- how TCL is impure,
gross, and its inclusion makes us "less", makes us the mockery of the
language world, how everyone loathes and detests it.

None of that is true, on any factual level.

Time and time again, you presume to speak for "us", for "we", and that's
detestable.

Meaning to or not, you come across as a troll, as if these emotional
responses are your end and not your means.

Make an argument. Support it with facts, leave out the rhetoric, make
your case. This is a forum of engineers-- even if most of us aren't
professional engineers, and many are just starting along the line of
becoming engineers. But this is not a religious organization. This is
not a political party. By and large, we don't mind if someone chooses
another solution. (Yes, I'm speaking for "we" now, I know)

Practicality beats purity.

This is a fundamental concept, not only in Python, but in the community.
The community is about solving problems. Not an agenda. There is no
desire to win. There is no desire to be best. There is a desire for
individuals to be empowered to succeed.

--

Stephen Hansen
... Also: Ixokai
... Mail: me+list/python (AT) ixokai (DOT) io
... Blog: http://meh.ixokai.io/


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Stephen Hansen
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Posts: n/a
 
      06-13-2010
On 6/12/10 10:10 PM, Cameron Simpson wrote:
> Python advocacy seems to be by example, not cheerleading.


+1 QOTW

--

Stephen Hansen
... Also: Ixokai
... Mail: me+list/python (AT) ixokai (DOT) io
... Blog: http://meh.ixokai.io/


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Martin P. Hellwig
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Posts: n/a
 
      06-13-2010
<snip all>
At first I wanted to response in the style of 'karma is a bitch' or
'what goes around comes around' but then I considered that won't be
helping much, so I only did at first in a meta sort of way, sorry for that.
The thing is that sometimes for no good or appealing reasons, which I
personally think in this case isn't so, the whole world is against you.

So I would propose that, instead of beating up a dead horse (I try to
write from your point of view) you fork the project, call it Rython (or
whatever you fancy) and create the community you want by patching up the
language to your standards.

I promise if there is something where I am competent enough I will
seriously consider contributing.

--
mph

 
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Thomas Jollans
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Posts: n/a
 
      06-13-2010
You want to contribute to the stdlib? No problem, it's easy! I did so
recently. You file an issue on the python.org bug tracker, describing
the problem, and attach a patch that fixes it. A nice developer with
commit rights will be with you shortly. The guy that committed my tiny
little patch the other day was even kind enough to add me to the authors
(or was it acknowledgements? I forget.) file.

Oh, you want to contribute a new package/module? Then write it, and post
it to the cheese shop! If it's any good, people may want to help you
build upon the foundation you laid. If it's really, really good, and
universally useful, it might actually end up in the stdlib. For example,
the standard unittest module which we all know and love was an
independent package once upon a time!

Also, I'm sick of reading "a modest proposal" in hundreds of subject lines.

-- Thomas


On 06/13/2010 05:09 AM, rantingrick wrote:
>
> -------------------------
> Where is the community?
> -------------------------
>
> I think the Python community is broken. I think we don't really "have"
> a community. It's more like a handful of negitive people at the top
> and every one else is chopped liver.
>
> Just today i saw another chance to contribute code to Python's stdlib,
> but then that nagging feeling of "Whats the use, these people are just
> going to discredit you and never accept code from you just because
> they hate you". Sadly though the only damage is done to Python.
>
> For those who are not aware my very first post to c.l.p (and Usenet)
> was about 1.5 years ago. At that time i saw a void that Python could
> fill nicely as a simple scripting language for an very quickly
> advancing 3D modeling application (Google SketchUp). (You can search
> the archives for a thread called..."Help, Google SketchUp needs a
> Python API" if you are interested.)
>
> So i my first thought was to find out if anyone was interested in
> starting this project up. So i posted my ideas and to my complete and
> utter surprise i was lynched by the Python community as a heretic...."
> How dare you ask other people to help do what you should be doing
> yourself "... well that was the "Sunday school" version of the
> responses i received. I was discredited and mobbed for no apparent
> reason except that i had the balls to ask the question in the first
> place. I was only looking to get feedback, but the endless hoards
> insisted that "they" new my intentions better than *I*.
>
> Why was the reaction so negative? Well i will admit some fault in the
> fact that i trashed Ruby pretty bad. I felt everything i said was true
> IMO then as is now (mostly). People should have a right to opinions.
> However since i was such an "unknown" and you could say a "newbie",
> was this reaction warranted? I think not, and it speaks volumes to the
> negative attitudes within this community.
>
> This brings me to a new question. How many really exceptional Python
> programmers have been left out OR pushed out because of the extreme
> narcissism of the "core" python group. And when i say "core" i am
> speaking of the handful of people who hang out here discrediting and
> mobbing anybody they see as a threat to their superiority. They clutch
> to power like a hated dictator because that is all they have left.
>
> You people need to get a life, drop your narcissistic attitudes and be
> more helpful, friendly, and welcoming to the wider world. This
> community is not a community, its a "Cosa Nostra". Your predator like
> behaviors are bleeding the spirit of Python's community. This
> community does not belong to you or me or even GvR, we all share an
> equal piece. And no matter how much, or little, each of use
> contribute, we all share an equally divided peice.
>
> I have spoken with "other" Python programmers (far more advanced than
> myself) who echo this sentiment. However unlike me they cannot afford
> to sacrifice their image to this group, EVEN if the group is at fault!
> However this behavior is causing Python to suffer from lack of diverse
> developers, and shrinks the pool of those who wish to participate.
>
> But i'll tell you one thing, you will never bleed me dry because i am
> stronger than all! I will be a thorn in your sides every time you pick
> on a newbie. I will point out every negative comment you make, it will
> not be hidden as you like. Whether i am accepted or assassinated i
> will create an irreversible butterfly affect that no organization of
> negativity can endure. I will bring some positive attitudes to this
> group if it's the last thing i do! That will be my contribution to
> this group, and it may just save the Python community as a whole!
>
>
>
>
>


 
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John Bokma
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Posts: n/a
 
      06-13-2010
Thomas Jollans <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:

> Also, I'm sick of reading "a modest proposal" in hundreds of subject lines.


OK, how about a modest proposal in the body? Please do not top post. Or
at least don't quote a very, very long article. Thank you.

--
John Bokma j3b

Hacking & Hiking in Mexico - http://johnbokma.com/
http://castleamber.com/ - Perl & Python Development
 
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