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Re: Open source developers just in it for themselves

 
 
AD.
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      06-11-2010
On Jun 11, 4:37*pm, "impossible" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> Screw the "community", say most open source developers, nearly two-thirds of
> whom contribute absolutely nothing back -- not so much as a bug report -- *
> according to a recent poll of open source developers.
>
> http://www.eclipse.org/org/community...vey_2010_Repor...


You seem to be confusing "Eclipse users" with "open source
developers".

Most Eclipse users would work for companies writing closed source
internal apps. Just using Eclipse doesn't make you an open source
developer.

--
Cheers
Anton
 
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AD.
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      06-11-2010
On Jun 12, 5:24*am, "impossible" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> "AD." <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>
> news:(E-Mail Removed)...
>
>
>
> > On Jun 11, 4:37 pm, "impossible" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> >> Screw the "community", say most open source developers, nearly two-thirds
> >> of
> >> whom contribute absolutely nothing back -- not so much as a bug report --
> >> according to a recent poll of open source developers.

>
> >>http://www.eclipse.org/org/community...vey_2010_Repor....

>
> > You seem to be confusing "Eclipse users" with "open source
> > developers".

>
> > Most Eclipse users would work for companies writing closed source
> > internal apps.

>
> > Just using Eclipse doesn't make you an open source
> > developer.

>
> You seem to be confusing "open source developers" with a church.


"Open Source Developer" - someone who develops open source software.

"Eclipse User" - someone who uses Eclipse.

The survey surveyed Eclipse Users.

Does that help clarify these concepts for you?

--
Cheers
Anton
 
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AD.
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      06-12-2010
On Jun 12, 1:41 pm, "impossible" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> "AD." <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> > "Open Source Developer" - someone who develops open source software.

>
> > "Eclipse User" - someone who uses Eclipse.

>
> You do realize that Eclipse is open source software, don't you?


So is the Java JDK. So are hundreds of the most commonly used Java
libraries. So is Subversion. So is Ant. So are lots of bits of
proprietary app servers like Websphere or BEA. So is Emacs. So is Vim.
So is Trac. So is Redmine. So is Microsoft's MVC.NET web framework. So
are the NUnit and xUnit .NET testing frameworks. So is the new MS SDK
for their Outlook file formats. So is Adobes Flex SDK. So are lots of
bits of Apple's Xcode IDE. So are many many .NET development
libraries, tools, frameworks, IDE plugins etc available from codeplex.
The list goes on and on.

You'd be hard pressed to find an internal closed source enterprise
development team anywhere that didn't have at least some open source
stuff somewhere in their development, testing and management
toolchains.

Of course this might not be apparent to someone who's development
experience is limited to MS Office macros.

>
> > The survey surveyed Eclipse Users.

>
> Hence this was a survey of open source developers.


So by your moronic logic, iPhone developers and XCode users are also
open source developers because there is a lot of open source code in
the Apple developer tools? Or developers building webapps on top of
MVC.NET are also open source developers?

And also by your logic, the team that develops (for example) the
National Banks online banking system are open source developers
because they use or have used Eclipse?

> In what sense are Eclipse users not a legitimate part of the open source
> community in your mind?


I never said that. But aren't you the one trumpeting the survey result
that found 2/3rds or Eclipse users don't participate in the Eclipse
community at all?

So haven't you just contradicted yourself and shown that Eclipse users
don't have to be part of the Eclipse open source community anyway?

And being that the Eclipse users outside the community would be far
less likely to even hear about the community survey, it is obvious the
proportion of Eclipse users outside the community would be far higher
than the 2/3rds indicated.

Being an Eclipse user is tangential to being an open source developer
or community member. Eclipse is something you use, open source
development or community participation is something you do. An Eclipse
user could be a closed source software developer, an open source
software developer, or both.

Eclipse is probably the most popular Java IDE, and Javas user base is
mostly internal enterprise development shops. It stands to reason that
most Eclipse users are not open source developers.

You also quoted the survey saying there are millions of users yet
thousands of community members. So there are orders of magnitude more
Eclipse users outside the Eclipse community than inside it.

Even your evidence disagrees with you.

--
Cheers
Anton
 
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Enkidu
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      06-12-2010
On 13/06/10 02:19, impossible wrote:
>>
>> And also by your logic, the team that develops (for example) the
>> National Banks online banking system are open source developers
>> because they use or have used Eclipse?

>
> It's up to each developer.
>

That doesn't even come close to answering the question.

It is not up to each developer what tools he uses, unless he works in
isolation. It's up to the organisation to specify the tools that their
developers use and how they use them.

Cheers,

Cliff

--

The ends justifies the means - Niccol˛ di Bernardo dei Machiavelli.

The end excuses any evil - Sophocles
 
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AD.
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      06-12-2010
On Jun 13, 2:19*am, "impossible" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> Two thirds of open source developers don't think of themselves as belonging
> to an "open source community". That's exactly my point. Most are just in it
> for themselves.


Your point is based on a fallacy and you're failing to wriggle out of
it.

A developer that uses open source is not necessarily an open source
developer. They are definitely an open source user, but whether or not
they are an open source developer is defined by the software they
develop not the software they use.

If someone uses a text editor to develop software, they are a text
editor user, but they are only a text editor developer if they develop
text editors.

An engineer may drive a car to and from work, but that doesn't
necessarily make them an automotive engineer unless they work on cars.

etc etc

Get it? As much as you'd like to represent this as ideology, it just
is simple comprehension and set theory.

A child could easily understand the difference. After all the
difference between subsets and intersection sets is still fresh in
their mind.

--
Cheers
Anton
 
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AD.
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      06-13-2010
On Jun 13, 12:14*pm, "impossible" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> There are no rules specifying who does and does not belong to the "open
> source community". Eclipse invited members of its own self-described "open
> source community" to participate in a survey, and 1600 or so did. Just
> because the Larry D'Loserite Church didn't get to vet their bona fides as
> command-line fetishists and fanatical ideologues doesn't make their opinions
> any less valid.


So you've slipped from calling them open source developers to open
source community members? That sounds suspiciously like calling them
open source users. Is that an admission you were wrong all along?

Your premise was by definition completely contradictory anyway. You
were trumpeting that 2/3rds of open source developers don't contribute
anything back - but how can you be an open source developer if you
don't contribute anything back? Isn't making code contributions the
whole thing that makes someone an open source developer in the first
place?

But if the statistic is instead that 2/3rds of Eclipse users don't
contribute anything back to the community - then that isn't
contradictory. There is nothing in the definition being an Eclipse
user requiring any sort of contribution back to the community.

Again (as much as you'd wish it to be) this has nothing to do with
ideology, just some very basic definitions and simple logic. And the
only invalid opinion so far appears to be yours.

--
Cheers
Anton

The statistic fits if you don't confuse a survey of Eclipse users
with a survey of open source developers.
 
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Bruce Sinclair
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      06-13-2010
In article <(E-Mail Removed)>, "AD." <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>On Jun 11, 4:37=A0pm, "impossible" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>> Screw the "community", say most open source developers, nearly two-thirds=

> of
>> whom contribute absolutely nothing back -- not so much as a bug report --=

> =A0
>> according to a recent poll of open source developers.
>> http://www.eclipse.org/org/community...vey_2010_Repor...

>
>You seem to be confusing "Eclipse users" with "open source
>developers".
>
>Most Eclipse users would work for companies writing closed source
>internal apps. Just using Eclipse doesn't make you an open source
>developer.


Confusion is Impossible's default status. Don't bother replying ...
wastes everyone's times.


 
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AD.
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      06-13-2010
On Jun 14, 12:57*am, "impossible" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> Just as I thought -- The Larry D'Loserite Church has spoken! Anton the
> Wanton Censor presiding.


Hehe, can you point out a single ideological or religious argument
I've made?

This sounds awfully like you've painted yourself into a corner.

> No one dareth call themselves an open source developer unless they have
> passed the church's test of ideological purity!


Surely to call yourself an open source developer you have to like
actually develop open source software? That's not a test of purity,
it's the definition.

Where is the ideological aspect to that argument? It is the logical
meaning of the term. You're the one ignoring the facts.

The survey asked people who visited the Eclipse homepage some
questions about software development. Some answers:

98% use some version of Eclipse (ie only 2% said they didn't use
Eclipse)
and
64% don't contribute anything to the Eclipse community

vs

16% have at one time developed a plugin
8% have at one time entered a patch into Bugzilla
5% have at one time been an active committer on a project

So being that most of those contributors would do more than one of
those things, we have about maybe around 20% of the survey respondents
who have contributed code in some form. Note that surveys selection
bias would also overstate that number. The large numbers of closed
source corporate developers using Eclipse would be less likely to have
been aware of the survey - although some of them answered based on the
other tools used.

Summary:

98% use Eclipse
approx 20% are identifiably open source developers

Conclusion:

98% is far larger than 20% even with huge margins of error. So I think
a better description of the survey is therefore a survey of Eclipse
users not a survey of open source developers. A logical rational
argument based on the very numbers you supplied.

You on the other hand refuted that objection and despite the numbers
cling to the idea that it was instead a survey of open source
developers and that somehow being an Eclipse user automatically makes
you an open source developer. As if being a user of something
automatically makes you a designer or builder of that something. A
flawed illogical argument.

In your haste to deflect Larry's post noting the dramatic drop in
popularity of Windows amongst Eclipse users, you really did confuse a
survey of Eclipse users with a survey of open source developers.

But don't worry, the same selection bias that overstates the number of
open source developers amongst Eclipse users (thus weakening your
argument even further) would also likely understate the proportion of
Eclipse users developing on Windows. So it's OK after all, it was a
false alarm and you don't have to defend your stock portfolio so
irrationally in this case.

--
Cheers
Anton
 
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Lawrence D'Oliveiro
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      06-14-2010
In message
<(E-Mail Removed)>, AD.
wrote:

> ... the same selection bias that overstates the number of
> open source developers amongst Eclipse users ... would also likely
> understate the proportion of Eclipse users developing on Windows.


But why would that selection bias vary over time? The survey shows a
continuing drop in those using Windows compared to previous years.
 
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AD.
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      06-14-2010
On Jun 14, 12:14*pm, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <l...@geek-
central.gen.new_zealand> wrote:
> In message
> <(E-Mail Removed)>, AD.
> wrote:
>
> > ... the same selection bias that overstates the number of
> > open source developers amongst Eclipse users ... would also likely
> > understate the proportion of Eclipse users developing on Windows.

>
> But why would that selection bias vary over time? The survey shows a
> continuing drop in those using Windows compared to previous years.


I wasn't assuming the selection bias would change - it could very well
stay the same. I don't doubt the Windows percentage is dropping. I
just suspect it is probably a bit higher than the survey suggests.

One aspect that could alter the selection bias though is Eclipses
improving support for other languages. For example it is only in the
last year or so that the pydev extension became fully open source.
Based on all the developers I know, I reckon the percentage of Windows
users amongst languages like Python and PHP is a bit lower than it is
amongst Java developers. Especially as Java devs are more biased
towards corporate internal enterprise stuff than Python and PHP.

These minor technicalities aside, it was a significant (and
interesting) drop in the number of Windows users.

--
Cheers
Anton
 
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