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jackOrip wrote:
> I am just beginning to develop my own VERY small applications.
> However, I believe I have learned all I can at my extremely limited
> school.

"school" does not equate to learning. Now a days, you have many more
resources at your disposal, the internet is one of them. Schools are
pretty much obsolete, IMO.

> I think the next step is to join an open source project

FWIW, I would not hire or work with anyone who has worked on GPL'd source
nor who has worked for another software house. Period.

> learn from those who are better than me.

Learn from information, not from people. All you can learn from people is
their political games.

> Yes, I still read massive
> amounts of books and tutorials but nothing compares to the actual act
> of getting your hands dirty with some code.

So develop some. If you are young, goal-setting is probably your biggest
problem: you don't know what you want to do, what you value, "the grand
scheme of things", etc. I don't give advice, except this one thing: don't
work overtime for any "employer", EVER.

>
> My question is: Are there places where budding programmers (not
> newbies) like me could go to join in on something without being
> expected to produce massive amounts of quality work. I just don't
> think I'm at that level yet.

You are calling the wolves to eat you up! Get away from programming for
awhile and bone up on intellectual property, slavery, etc. Not advice, of
course.

>
> Also, it would be nice if it was a place where beginners aren't
> scorned for not knowing every single method, function, and library
> that currently exists.

You probably already know too much for my liking. I want those who know
programming principles and were presented with them objectively or even
sceptically. The last thing I would want for a programmer is someone who
has been programmed!

> I would really like a place where feedback is
> given.

Welcome to USENET.

> Since my school only has the one C++ course, I bet I will still
> need some explanations.

Don't worry, Bjarne is still trying to explain it.

>
> Any suggestions?

Nope.

joe wrote:
> jackOrip wrote:
> > I am just beginning to develop my own VERY small applications.
> > However, I believe I have learned all I can at my extremely limited
> > school.
>
> "school" does not equate to learning. Now a days, you have many more
> resources at your disposal, the internet is one of them. Schools are
> pretty much obsolete, IMO.

somewhat agree

> > I think the next step is to join an open source project
>
> FWIW, I would not hire or work with anyone who has worked on GPL'd source
> nor who has worked for another software house. Period.

whoa, that narrows down the choice quite a bit... could you describe
your ideal teammate / employee?

> > learn from those who are better than me.
>
> Learn from information, not from people. All you can learn from people is
> their political games.

so the OP should completely avoid posting questions here, I suppose...

> > Yes, I still read massive
> > amounts of books and tutorials but nothing compares to the actual act
> > of getting your hands dirty with some code.
>
> So develop some. If you are young, goal-setting is probably your biggest
> problem: you don't know what you want to do, what you value, "the grand
> scheme of things", etc. I don't give advice, except this one thing: don't
> work overtime for any "employer", EVER.

I would say: never without getting the due (augmented) wage.

> >
> > My question is: Are there places where budding programmers (not
> > newbies) like me could go to join in on something without being
> > expected to produce massive amounts of quality work. I just don't
> > think I'm at that level yet.
>
> You are calling the wolves to eat you up! Get away from programming for
> awhile and bone up on intellectual property, slavery, etc. Not advice, of
> course.

agree, you must know your value first of all, and be able to tell
who's willing to grow /with/ you from who's willing to grow /on/ you,
never missing to send to hell the latter

> >
> > Also, it would be nice if it was a place where beginners aren't
> > scorned for not knowing every single method, function, and library
> > that currently exists.
>
> You probably already know too much for my liking. I want those who know
> programming principles and were presented with them objectively or even
> sceptically. The last thing I would want for a programmer is someone who
> has been programmed!
>
> > I would really like a place where feedback is
> > given.
>
> Welcome to USENET.
>
> > Since my school only has the one C++ course, I bet I will still
> > need some explanations.
>
> Don't worry, Bjarne is still trying to explain it.

uh, joe, seems like you're not so happy with C++... any complaints?

> >
> > Any suggestions?
>
> Nope.

yep on my part, I'm willing to share my knowledge, but you already got
plenty of good advices so far about this subject, I can only stress
more the "practice, practice, practice" mantra, whatever the field
that tickles your brain

shall you need detailed help on the language's features, feel free to
ask, there are a lot of tough guys in here

On Jun 11, 9:38 am, jackOrip <I...@home.com> wrote:
> Ouch. Thanks for taking a little of the sting off of Joe's comment.
> While I agree with some of what he says, it's comforting to see not
> all here believe exactly as he does. For the record, I'm 32 years
> old. I'm not an impressionable or easily frightened child. I just went
> back to school because I could finally afford to.
>
> I know all to well about the politics and social game-playing of the
> adult world. I thought my question would have a relatively simple
> answer (a url) not start a discussion on moral and ethical deviance.
> hehehe. I'm just new to programming, not to life guys.
>
> Again, thanks for all the super advice. I have archived these threads
> so I can get back to them. Until then, I'm gonna let you guys/gals get
> back to the debate on who makes a better co-worker.

Honestly you can completely and totally ignore "joe"'s post. It
was one of the most bizarre, off-base, ignorant troll posts I've
ever seen randomly appear in an otherwise nice discussion. Such
entities as this on usenet are called "trolls" and are best
ignored entirely.

KHD

"Andrea" <> wrote in message
news:39f9c993-ed84-45b0-9113-...
> joe wrote:
>> jackOrip wrote:
>> > I am just beginning to develop my own VERY small applications.
>> > However, I believe I have learned all I can at my extremely limited
>> > school.
>>
>> "school" does not equate to learning. Now a days, you have many more
>> resources at your disposal, the internet is one of them. Schools are
>> pretty much obsolete, IMO.
>
> somewhat agree

This isn't a poll. Feel free to snip anything you do add value to. (From
USENET rules of etiquette 101, surely). Goal: try to make posts shorter
and responses fewer (in a good way though). OK? You get it (now).

>
>> > I think the next step is to join an open source project
>>
>> FWIW, I would not hire or work with anyone who has worked on GPL'd
>> source
>> nor who has worked for another software house. Period.
>
> whoa, that narrows down the choice quite a bit... could you describe
> your ideal teammate / employee?

Not currently hiring nor allying.

>
>> > learn from those who are better than me.
>>
>> Learn from information, not from people. All you can learn from people
>> is
>> their political games.
>
> so the OP should completely avoid posting questions here, I suppose...

Extremism singled out as noise. Don't do what Andrea just did people:
went to a far place of abstraction in attempt to generalize into a
following.

>
>> > Yes, I still read massive
>> > amounts of books and tutorials but nothing compares to the actual
>> > act
>> > of getting your hands dirty with some code.
>>
>> So develop some. If you are young, goal-setting is probably your
>> biggest
>> problem: you don't know what you want to do, what you value, "the
>> grand
>> scheme of things", etc. I don't give advice, except this one thing:
>> don't
>> work overtime for any "employer", EVER.
>
> I would say: never without getting the due (augmented) wage.

I said NEVER and meant it. Note the CAPITALIZATION. If the situation is
that bad, do it, but ramp your price up until the end where there will be
a balloon payment for the omitted keys. Don't play games, be up front
WHAT you are selling ad how much it will cost. Easier to avoid all those
stupid people and games and just don't do it. They are trying to get the
better of you, and that, by definition, is NOT a relationship (even a
business one).

>
>> >
>> > My question is: Are there places where budding programmers (not
>> > newbies) like me could go to join in on something without being
>> > expected to produce massive amounts of quality work. I just don't
>> > think I'm at that level yet.
>>
>> You are calling the wolves to eat you up! Get away from programming
>> for
>> awhile and bone up on intellectual property, slavery, etc. Not advice,
>> of
>> course.
>
> agree, you must know your value first of all, and be able to tell
> who's willing to grow /with/ you from who's willing to grow /on/ you,
> never missing to send to hell the latter

This isn't a polling place. It's USENET.

>
>> >
>> > Also, it would be nice if it was a place where beginners aren't
>> > scorned for not knowing every single method, function, and library
>> > that currently exists.
>>
>> You probably already know too much for my liking. I want those who
>> know
>> programming principles and were presented with them objectively or
>> even
>> sceptically. The last thing I would want for a programmer is someone
>> who
>> has been programmed!
>>
>> > I would really like a place where feedback is
>> > given.
>>
>> Welcome to USENET.
>>
>> > Since my school only has the one C++ course, I bet I will still
>> > need some explanations.
>>
>> Don't worry, Bjarne is still trying to explain it.
>
> uh, joe, seems like you're not so happy with C++... any complaints?

I made no such connotation.

>
>> >
>> > Any suggestions?
>>
>> Nope.
>
> shall you need detailed help on the language's features, feel free to
> ask, there are a lot of tough guys in here

Don't waste your time with that! READ a book (or 12!). Most things that
drag on in here have been written in a book already. Some of the "Gurus"
like to bring you that well-known material so that you think they are
gurus. Read, learn. Do, get good at something. Both things are required.

"jackOrip" <> wrote in message
news:...
> On Fri, 11 Jun 2010 03:06:32 -0700 (PDT), Andrea <>
> wrote:
> I have archived these threads
> so I can get back to them.

Do internet searches on why you should not file away emails to address
them later. It is similar to why you should not do it with USENET
threads. Certain posts, sure. Whole threads, surely not. I save technical
material sometimes, but mostly to remind me of what I want someone else
to do in the future (details).

"Keith H Duggar" <> wrote in message
news:1ceeaef5-a911-467e-87ac-...
> On Jun 11, 9:38 am, jackOrip <I...@home.com> wrote:
>> Ouch. Thanks for taking a little of the sting off of Joe's comment.
>> While I agree with some of what he says, it's comforting to see not
>> all here believe exactly as he does. For the record, I'm 32 years
>> old. I'm not an impressionable or easily frightened child. I just went
>> back to school because I could finally afford to.
>>
>> I know all to well about the politics and social game-playing of the
>> adult world. I thought my question would have a relatively simple
>> answer (a url) not start a discussion on moral and ethical deviance.
>> hehehe. I'm just new to programming, not to life guys.
>>
>> Again, thanks for all the super advice. I have archived these threads
>> so I can get back to them. Until then, I'm gonna let you guys/gals get
>> back to the debate on who makes a better co-worker.
>
> Honestly you can completely and totally ignore "joe"'s post. It
> was one of the most bizarre, off-base, ignorant troll posts I've
> ever seen randomly appear in an otherwise nice discussion. Such
> entities as this on usenet are called "trolls" and are best
> ignored entirely.
>
> KHD

OTOH, defamation of character is against the law (at least where I live
it is). Consider this notice to cease and desist Keith H Duggar.

joe wrote:
> "Andrea" <> wrote in message
> news:39f9c993-ed84-45b0-9113-...
> > joe wrote:
> >> jackOrip wrote:
> >> > I am just beginning to develop my own VERY small applications.
> >> > However, I believe I have learned all I can at my extremely limited
> >> > school.
> >>
> >> "school" does not equate to learning. Now a days, you have many more
> >> resources at your disposal, the internet is one of them. Schools are
> >> pretty much obsolete, IMO.
> >
> > somewhat agree
>
> This isn't a poll. Feel free to snip anything you do add value to. (From
> USENET rules of etiquette 101, surely). Goal: try to make posts shorter
> and responses fewer (in a good way though). OK? You get it (now).

I acknowledge your preferred style of replying. though, I'm not
obliged to follow your style. feel free to drop a "this isn't a poll"
whenever someone agrees with you

> >
> >> > I think the next step is to join an open source project
> >>
> >> FWIW, I would not hire or work with anyone who has worked on GPL'd
> >> source
> >> nor who has worked for another software house. Period.
> >
> > whoa, that narrows down the choice quite a bit... could you describe
> > your ideal teammate / employee?
>
> Not currently hiring nor allying.

I'd say then that your line should have read "I would not hire or work
with anyone", but eventually you're currently someone's boss or
teammate, hence the line should read something different... whatever

>
> >
> >> > learn from those who are better than me.
> >>
> >> Learn from information, not from people. All you can learn from people
> >> is
> >> their political games.
> >
> > so the OP should completely avoid posting questions here, I suppose...
>
> Extremism singled out as noise. Don't do what Andrea just did people:
> went to a far place of abstraction in attempt to generalize into a
> following.

'twas mine, the extremism? the phrase I was replying to (i.e. a net
generalization) is quite less "balanced" than mine (i.e. a
supposition, inferred from your generalization)

> >
> >> > Yes, I still read massive
> >> > amounts of books and tutorials but nothing compares to the actual
> >> > act
> >> > of getting your hands dirty with some code.
> >>
> >> So develop some. If you are young, goal-setting is probably your
> >> biggest
> >> problem: you don't know what you want to do, what you value, "the
> >> grand
> >> scheme of things", etc. I don't give advice, except this one thing:
> >> don't
> >> work overtime for any "employer", EVER.
> >
> > I would say: never without getting the due (augmented) wage.
>
> I said NEVER and meant it. Note the CAPITALIZATION. If the situation is
> that bad, do it, but ramp your price up until the end where there will be
> a balloon payment for the omitted keys. Don't play games, be up front
> WHAT you are selling ad how much it will cost. Easier to avoid all those
> stupid people and games and just don't do it. They are trying to get the
> better of you, and that, by definition, is NOT a relationship (even a
> business one).

your definition doesn't match others', which can be quite different.
in particular, your definition of "relationship" doesn't match the
vocabulary's one: a relationship can be anything from good to bad, it
simply represents the fact of having a relation, it doesn't define any
of its qualities

I must notice that you go on making generalizations...

> >
> >> >
> >> > My question is: Are there places where budding programmers (not
> >> > newbies) like me could go to join in on something without being
> >> > expected to produce massive amounts of quality work. I just don't
> >> > think I'm at that level yet.
> >>
> >> You are calling the wolves to eat you up! Get away from programming
> >> for
> >> awhile and bone up on intellectual property, slavery, etc. Not advice,
> >> of
> >> course.
> >
> > agree, you must know your value first of all, and be able to tell
> > who's willing to grow /with/ you from who's willing to grow /on/ you,
> > never missing to send to hell the latter
>
> This isn't a polling place. It's USENET.
>
> >
> >> >
> >> > Also, it would be nice if it was a place where beginners aren't
> >> > scorned for not knowing every single method, function, and library
> >> > that currently exists.
> >>
> >> You probably already know too much for my liking. I want those who
> >> know
> >> programming principles and were presented with them objectively or
> >> even
> >> sceptically. The last thing I would want for a programmer is someone
> >> who
> >> has been programmed!
> >>
> >> > I would really like a place where feedback is
> >> > given.
> >>
> >> Welcome to USENET.
> >>
> >> > Since my school only has the one C++ course, I bet I will still
> >> > need some explanations.
> >>
> >> Don't worry, Bjarne is still trying to explain it.
> >
> > uh, joe, seems like you're not so happy with C++... any complaints?
>
> I made no such connotation.

glad to read this clarification, because your line was ambiguous at
best

>
> >
> >> >
> >> > Any suggestions?
> >>
> >> Nope.
> >
> > shall you need detailed help on the language's features, feel free to
> > ask, there are a lot of tough guys in here
>
> Don't waste your time with that! READ a book (or 12!). Most things that
> drag on in here have been written in a book already. Some of the "Gurus"
> like to bring you that well-known material so that you think they are
> gurus. Read, learn. Do, get good at something. Both things are required.

that's not a waste of time, lots of people have taken advantage of the
clarifications exposed in these groups (clc++, clc++m, csc++ to name
just the c++ related ones) this is just a medium to communicate with
people, and among those people are book writers, compiler implementers
and collaborators of the standardization team, and as well are, I
repeat, tough people who gained experience on the field

you DO give some good advices, but you scatter them among misanthropic
statements. books are written by human beings just like USENET posts -
modulo spambots - and both can be useful or harmful: the decisive
place is the field: only by putting something in practice one can
discover whether some given information is correct or not, whatever
the source, but this means that I somewhat agree with you, and I'm
afraid you'll reply that "this is not a poll"

On Jun 13, 6:36 am, Andrea <andnot...@gmail.com> wrote:
> joe wrote:
> > "Andrea" <andnot...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >news:39f9c993-ed84-45b0-9113-...
> > > joe wrote:
> > >> jackOrip wrote:
> > >> > I am just beginning to develop my own VERY small applications.
> > >> > However, I believe I have learned all I can at my extremely limited
> > >> > school.
>
> > >> "school" does not equate to learning. Now a days, you have many more
> > >> resources at your disposal, the internet is one of them. Schools are
> > >> pretty much obsolete, IMO.
>
> > > somewhat agree
>
> > This isn't a poll. Feel free to snip anything you do add value to. (From
> > USENET rules of etiquette 101, surely). Goal: try to make posts shorter
> > and responses fewer (in a good way though). OK? You get it (now).
>
> I acknowledge your preferred style of replying. though, I'm not
> obliged to follow your style. feel free to drop a "this isn't a poll"
> whenever someone agrees with you

Please do not feed the troll! They are best totally ignored.
Please stop feeding it ie stop replying to it.

KHD

Keith H Duggar wrote:
> On Jun 13, 6:36 am, Andrea <andnot...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > joe wrote:
> > > "Andrea" <andnot...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> > >news:39f9c993-ed84-45b0-9113-...
> > > > joe wrote:
> > > >> jackOrip wrote:
> > > >> > I am just beginning to develop my own VERY small applications.
> > > >> > However, I believe I have learned all I can at my extremely limited
> > > >> > school.
> >
> > > >> "school" does not equate to learning. Now a days, you have many more
> > > >> resources at your disposal, the internet is one of them. Schools are
> > > >> pretty much obsolete, IMO.
> >
> > > > somewhat agree
> >
> > > This isn't a poll. Feel free to snip anything you do add value to. (From
> > > USENET rules of etiquette 101, surely). Goal: try to make posts shorter
> > > and responses fewer (in a good way though). OK? You get it (now).
> >
> > I acknowledge your preferred style of replying. though, I'm not
> > obliged to follow your style. feel free to drop a "this isn't a poll"
> > whenever someone agrees with you
>
> Please do not feed the troll! They are best totally ignored.
> Please stop feeding it ie stop replying to it.

that's a contradiction in terms, you cannot publicly call names on
people and then ask others not to reply to the same person you've
called names upon - if you wanted, you could have sent private emails
to the people who actually replied to him explaining your point of
view

look, I'm new here and this is the first time I speak with all of you,
I don't want to take on whichever party about someone on the base of
some third-person advice, I'll eventually be able to make up my own
mind, thanks a lot

On Jun 13, 7:30*pm, Andrea <andnot...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Keith H Duggar wrote:
> > On Jun 13, 6:36 am, Andrea <andnot...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > joe wrote:
> > > > "Andrea" <andnot...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> > > >news:39f9c993-ed84-45b0-9113-...
> > > > > joe wrote:
> > > > >> jackOrip wrote:
> > > > >> > I am just beginning to develop my own VERY small applications.
> > > > >> > However, I believe I have learned all I can at my extremely limited
> > > > >> > school.
>
> > > > >> "school" does not equate to learning. Now a days, you have many more
> > > > >> resources at your disposal, the internet is one of them. Schools are
> > > > >> pretty much obsolete, IMO.
>
> > > > > somewhat agree
>
> > > > This isn't a poll. Feel free to snip anything you do add value to. (From
> > > > USENET rules of etiquette 101, surely). Goal: try to make posts shorter
> > > > and responses fewer (in a good way though). OK? You get it (now).
>
> > > I acknowledge your preferred style of replying. though, I'm not
> > > obliged to follow your style. feel free to drop a "this isn't a poll"
> > > whenever someone agrees with you
>
> > Please do not feed the troll! They are best totally ignored.
> > Please stop feeding it ie stop replying to it.
>
> that's a contradiction in terms, you cannot publicly call names on
> people and then ask others not to reply to the same person you've
> called names upon - if you wanted, you could have sent private emails
> to the people who actually replied to him explaining your point of
> view
>
> look, I'm new here and this is the first time I speak with all of you,
> I don't want to take on whichever party about someone on the base of
> some third-person advice, I'll eventually be able to make up my own
> mind, thanks a lot

joe posted pile of self-contradicting views. Rough example: "do not
learn from others but from books and other information."

As if one should learn only by reading books written by (or
information provided by) non-others (self). That is too obviously
nonsensical. Not likely worth replying at all.

Keith suspects that joe therefore wants to annoy (troll) someone (you)
who takes what he posted too seriously. If Keith is right then
becoming annoyed is sort of reward to joe (food, lulz, whatever trolls
name it). Your reply felt ... sort of annoyed.