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Where do you want to go tomorrow?

 
 
John John - MVP
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Posts: n/a
 
      05-07-2010


Hector Santos wrote:
> John John - MVP wrote:
>
>> hector wrote:
>>
>>> Of course there is a MAIN source. It has to start from somewhere.
>>> Most PEERS are going to start with the MAIN source, others will use a
>>> mirror. The topology is more like a star network where you main have
>>> many hubs. But there is a main HUB source which is not going to be
>>> gating to other servers.

>>
>> That is certainly not my (and many others, I'm sure) understanding of
>> the Usenet network. It may have been a star network in the very early
>> days but it is now, and has for quite a while been described as a mesh
>> network.

>
>
> Ok, first, the microsoft.public.* newsgroups are not usenet.


Gee, I wonder why Microsoft themselves refer to them as Usenet groups...

http://www.microsoft.com/communities...sgroupfaq.mspx

> {snip]
>
> Well, #1 once the MS servers goes down, Google will not be able to pull
> from TK2MSFTNGP01.phx.gbl! It will have find some thing else.
>
> #2, you won't have MS server to post, and if you found another, you
> don't know if Google will be pulling from it or that your Serer will be
> posting to GOOGLE.


People post to the groups from all kinds of different servers, when the
Microsoft servers are down these other servers still synchronize between
themselves without any problem and these folks who post on other servers
can still post and read without the intermediary of Microsoft servers.
We have often seen this in the past when outages of a few hours or more
at the Microsoft servers have happened and some of us use other servers
to keep on posting, when the Microsoft servers come back only line they
then "catch-up" and then all the posts show up many hours latter on
these servers. This is obvious enough when you use non Microsoft
servers to read the posts in Microsoft groups, all kinds of posts which
have not made it to the MS servers, or posts which have been removed
from the MS servers are on the other servers for all to see and read.

John
 
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LD5SZRA
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Posts: n/a
 
      05-07-2010

Most probably you won't be able to move to anywhere else; not even
on forums because Microsoft hasn't got any plans to open forums
for Windows XP and earlier technology. Somebody suggested that
you can go to other P2P newsgroups like Google or aioe.org. This
again won't be possible because microsoft may force them to close
their newsgroups bearing Micro$hit name.

The only alternative I can think of is for somebody to organize a
group of about 10 individuals to come together and start their own
newsgroups to be financed by advertising and volunteers. I am
willing to put my name forward for this project provided there are
individuals who have some basic knowledge of hosting NNTPs which
can be expanded further as time goes by. I am good at programming
and developing websites using Java, Javascript and ASP and perhaps
some networking skills and SQL servers. that is all I know at
present.

hth


"Pavel A." wrote:
>
> Dear users of msnews.microsoft.com,
>
> There are rumors that Microsoft plans to shut down this nntp server.
>
> See this for example:
> http://news.cnet.com/8301-13860_3-20004109-56.html
>
> Any thoughts on where we can migrate from here - besides of the web-based
> MSDN forums?.
> To Google groups, maybe?
>
> Regards,
> -- pa
>


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Maxim S. Shatskih
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      05-07-2010

> Gee, I wonder why Microsoft themselves refer to them as Usenet groups...


This is, as Hector correctly told us, "Microsoft's Usenet"

Usenet technically, but is not set up to be the part of the public Usenet.

Well, there are comp.xxx public Usenet newsgroups, which duplicate most microsoft.xxx ones.

Probably those of us who hate the web interfaces should move there.

Anyway for my area of interest - Windows kernel - we have excellent OSROnline forums, where the traffic is around 4 times more then on microsoft.xxx

--
Maxim S. Shatskih
Windows DDK MVP
http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/(E-Mail Removed)
http://www.storagecraft.com

 
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Hector Santos
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      05-07-2010

John John - MVP wrote:

>
>
> Hector Santos wrote:
>> Ok, first, the microsoft.public.* newsgroups are not usenet.

>
> Gee, I wonder why Microsoft themselves refer to them as Usenet groups...
>
> http://www.microsoft.com/communities...sgroupfaq.mspx



Unfortunately, another case of Microsoft creating user confusion in
this regard.

Microsoft.public.* are *not* part of the usenet backbone newsgroup
listing nor backbone stream.

Check it out yourself. If you have access to a major ISP where you
have a high trunk line backwidth such as a T1 or T3, you will see that
the usenet feed newsgroup listing does not include microsoft.public.*

If a smaller ISP is showing microsoft.public.*, then they are directly
or indirectly going to Microsoft servers and are MERGING it with the
usenet listing. But they are two different sources of feeds.

>> #2, you won't have MS server to post, and if you found another, you
>> don't know if Google will be pulling from it or that your Serer will
>> be posting to GOOGLE.

>
> People post to the groups from all kinds of different servers, when the
> Microsoft servers are down these other servers still synchronize between
> themselves without any problem and these folks who post on other servers
> can still post and read without the intermediary of Microsoft servers.
> We have often seen this in the past when outages of a few hours or more
> at the Microsoft servers have happened and some of us use other servers
> to keep on posting, when the Microsoft servers come back only line they
> then "catch-up" and then all the posts show up many hours latter on
> these servers. This is obvious enough when you use non Microsoft
> servers to read the posts in Microsoft groups, all kinds of posts which
> have not made it to the MS servers, or posts which have been removed
> from the MS servers are on the other servers for all to see and read.


All that will change one MS pulls the plug from the wall.

While you might find another site that keeps the newsgroups and they
still remain relatively active, that is only because the site itself
have become the MAIN source for others to feed into - a large part of
the chain. But those chains that feed off Microsoft only are lost
unless they feed into someone else.

--
HLS
 
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Hector Santos
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Posts: n/a
 
      05-07-2010

LD5SZRA wrote:

> Most probably you won't be able to move to anywhere else; not even
> on forums because Microsoft hasn't got any plans to open forums
> for Windows XP and earlier technology. Somebody suggested that
> you can go to other P2P newsgroups like Google or aioe.org. This
> again won't be possible because microsoft may force them to close
> their newsgroups bearing Micro$hit name.
>
> The only alternative I can think of is for somebody to organize a
> group of about 10 individuals to come together and start their own
> newsgroups to be financed by advertising and volunteers. I am
> willing to put my name forward for this project provided there are
> individuals who have some basic knowledge of hosting NNTPs which
> can be expanded further as time goes by. I am good at programming
> and developing websites using Java, Javascript and ASP and perhaps
> some networking skills and SQL servers. that is all I know at
> present.




Yes, I agree.

This would be a good idea but it starts with a new "main source" or
feed coordination. There will be a lot of nodes lost once the MS NNTP
servers are shut off and they need to be told who they can link up to.

How successful that all be, might be another thing.

You need a "ground zero" whether its one site or a group of sites as a
whole - they all need to know they can feed off each other. Once that
is established, then the rest of the world can feed of them.

That or someone at Microsoft "donates" the name sake
"microsoft.public.*" to the backbone usenet feed to it becomes part of
it the usenet listing.

The point?

When a NNTP client issues the command at any of the "New Feeds":

NEWSGROUP

the NNTP SERVER will show:

microsoft.public.*

as part of the result.

--
HLS
 
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Lem
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Posts: n/a
 
      05-07-2010
Hector Santos wrote:
<snip>
>
> Check it out yourself. If you have access to a major ISP where you have
> a high trunk line backwidth such as a T1 or T3, you will see that the
> usenet feed newsgroup listing does not include microsoft.public.*
>
> If a smaller ISP is showing microsoft.public.*, then they are directly
> or indirectly going to Microsoft servers and are MERGING it with the
> usenet listing. But they are two different sources of feeds.
>

<snip>

I have no expertise at all in newsgroup management, but just to inject a
fact into all of this speculation, Earthlink (which I would characterize
as a "major ISP") includes the microsoft.public.* groups on its news
servers. Whether it will continue to do so after Microsoft discontinues
its support for the newsgroups is, of course, is another story.
--
Lem

Apollo 11 - 40 years ago:
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/ap...0th/index.html
 
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Hector Santos
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Posts: n/a
 
      05-07-2010

Lem wrote:

> Hector Santos wrote:
> <snip>
>>
>> Check it out yourself. If you have access to a major ISP where you
>> have a high trunk line backwidth such as a T1 or T3, you will see that
>> the usenet feed newsgroup listing does not include microsoft.public.*
>>
>> If a smaller ISP is showing microsoft.public.*, then they are directly
>> or indirectly going to Microsoft servers and are MERGING it with the
>> usenet listing. But they are two different sources of feeds.
>>

> <snip>
>
> I have no expertise at all in newsgroup management, but just to inject a
> fact into all of this speculation, Earthlink (which I would characterize
> as a "major ISP") includes the microsoft.public.* groups on its news
> servers. Whether it will continue to do so after Microsoft discontinues
> its support for the newsgroups is, of course, is another story.



If you see microsoft.* feeds in your Earthlink ISP NNTP news service,
then you they are directly or indirectly getting it from somewhere
that provides microsoft.public.* but theses groups are not part of the
usenet backbone.

There are merged from your view point, as a user of earthlink.

For example:

If you go to a news server XYZ.COM, and telnet it it on port 119.

Telnet xyz.com 119

You might see this:

200 Server Site Name version, posting allowed

Type HELP

and among the listing, you see the LIST command

100 Legal commands are :
article [MessageID|Number]
authinfo [user|pass|generic|transact] <data>
body [MessageID|Number]
check <message-id>
date
group newsgroup
head [MessageID|Number]
help
ihave <message-id>
last
list
[active|newsgroups[wildmat]|srchfields|searchable|prettynames[wildmat]]
listgroup [newsgroup]
mode stream|reader
newgroups yymmdd hhmmss ["GMT"] [<distributions>]
newnews wildmat yymmdd hhmmss ["GMT"] [<distributions>]
next
post
quit
search
stat [MessageID|number]
xhdr header [range|MessageID]
xover [range]
xpat header range|MessageID pat [morepat ...]
xreplic newsgroup/message-number[,newsgroup/message-number...]
takethis <message-id>
..

If you type LIST NEWSGROUPS

you will get the listing of the news groups that is available on that
server.

Among the list, you will see a MERGE of usenet plus private newsgroups

alt.* << - USENET, thousands of these
comp.* << - USENET, thousands of these
Earthlink.* << - a few of these for EarthLink techncal support
microsoft.* << - plus the private Microsoft groups.

The listing might stay after MS pulls the plug, but you won't see any
new mail unless EarthLink goes to another source (assuming they go
directly to microsoft for the news). But that new source might be
dependent on getting mail from msnews.microsoft.com. So its like an
old telephone listing - call it and no one is there.

So the listing might remain, but it will remain quite.

EARTHLINK connects to where they get the usenet BACKBONE feeds. They
are a big "major" ISP, but there are bigger ones - they pay backbone
companies, the Telcos. They are not AT&T, Verizon (formerly, MCI/
UUNET), the guys who own the "wires" - the infrastructure.

--
HLS
 
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John John - MVP
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      05-08-2010
Hector Santos wrote:
> John John - MVP wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Hector Santos wrote:
>>> Ok, first, the microsoft.public.* newsgroups are not usenet.

>>
>> Gee, I wonder why Microsoft themselves refer to them as Usenet groups...
>>
>> http://www.microsoft.com/communities...sgroupfaq.mspx

>
>
> Unfortunately, another case of Microsoft creating user confusion in this
> regard.
>
> Microsoft.public.* are *not* part of the usenet backbone newsgroup
> listing nor backbone stream.
>
> Check it out yourself. If you have access to a major ISP where you have
> a high trunk line backwidth such as a T1 or T3, you will see that the
> usenet feed newsgroup listing does not include microsoft.public.*
>
> If a smaller ISP is showing microsoft.public.*, then they are directly
> or indirectly going to Microsoft servers and are MERGING it with the
> usenet listing. But they are two different sources of feeds.
>
>>> #2, you won't have MS server to post, and if you found another, you
>>> don't know if Google will be pulling from it or that your Serer will
>>> be posting to GOOGLE.

>>
>> People post to the groups from all kinds of different servers, when
>> the Microsoft servers are down these other servers still synchronize
>> between themselves without any problem and these folks who post on
>> other servers can still post and read without the intermediary of
>> Microsoft servers. We have often seen this in the past when outages of
>> a few hours or more at the Microsoft servers have happened and some of
>> us use other servers to keep on posting, when the Microsoft servers
>> come back only line they then "catch-up" and then all the posts show
>> up many hours latter on these servers. This is obvious enough when
>> you use non Microsoft servers to read the posts in Microsoft groups,
>> all kinds of posts which have not made it to the MS servers, or posts
>> which have been removed from the MS servers are on the other servers
>> for all to see and read.

>
> All that will change one MS pulls the plug from the wall.
>
> While you might find another site that keeps the newsgroups and they
> still remain relatively active, that is only because the site itself
> have become the MAIN source for others to feed into - a large part of
> the chain. But those chains that feed off Microsoft only are lost
> unless they feed into someone else.


The groups are on *many* usenet servers, majors like Giganews as well as
small guys like aioe carry them. If these guys refuse to honor the
remove group notices the groups will continue to exist on these servers
and peerage will continue between any and all who decide to keep on
carrying the groups. There is no denying that a majority of the posts
originates from the Microsoft servers and that without these servers the
groups may or will probably wither and die but the death will not be
because Microsoft servers are not there to act as a peerage "hub".

John
 
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Hector Santos
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      05-08-2010
John John - MVP wrote:

> Hector Santos wrote:
>> John John - MVP wrote:
>>
>> All that will change one MS pulls the plug from the wall.
>>
>> While you might find another site that keeps the newsgroups and they
>> still remain relatively active, that is only because the site itself
>> have become the MAIN source for others to feed into - a large part of
>> the chain. But those chains that feed off Microsoft only are lost
>> unless they feed into someone else.

>
> The groups are on *many* usenet servers, majors like Giganews as well as
> small guys like aioe carry them. If these guys refuse to honor the
> remove group notices the groups will continue to exist on these servers
> and peerage will continue between any and all who decide to keep on
> carrying the groups. There is no denying that a majority of the posts
> originates from the Microsoft servers and that without these servers the
> groups may or will probably wither and die but the death will not be
> because Microsoft servers are not there to act as a peerage "hub".


Right, the death will be relative to the users of where they decide to
reconnect.

The fact is that many sites and end users use msnews.microsoft.com as
their site feed and now they will need to go to other sites. The
issue is that those other sites might also had been using Microsoft.

So sure, they will need to change to new site so that a link won't be
broken. As long as there remain a common list of newsgroups
available, and it includes microsoft.*, its all good as far as getting
it going.

--
HLS
 
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Hector Santos
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      05-08-2010

Just wish to note the actually Live ID authentication process is
internally done over SSL.

Hector Santos wrote:

> Yes, I did noticed that, and AFAICT, the REST requests are all HTTP.
>
> Note: the correct url is:
> http://services.social.microsoft.com...umsService.svc
>
> This is a primitive 3rd party program. The author seems to be new at
> communications requirements. It uses the Live ID Framework Client SDK
> for this.
>
> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb404791.aspx
>
> And it comes with a C# example illustrating the authentication.
>
> For me, since my live id account is a junk account anyway, I don't worry
> about it - although they are beginning to force me to use it more now.
>




--
HLS
 
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