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please help me get started with building a website

 
 
Arne Vajh°j
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      04-27-2010
On 27-04-2010 13:58, Tom Anderson wrote:
> On Mon, 26 Apr 2010, Arne Vajh?j wrote:
>
>> On 22-04-2010 21:39, mr_wu wrote:
>>> Can you kindly give me suggestions on using Java as the main component
>>> in website building? I'm especially interested in using it in backend
>>> as well as front end and incorporate hopefully AJAX.

>>
>> Do you want to use Java both in frontend of the server side and backend
>> of the server side or both at client and server?
>>
>> The first rules out AJAX unless you plan on using GWT.

>
> Or LiveConnect. No school like the old school!
>
> https://jdk6.dev.java.net/plugin2/liveconnect/


That has nothing to do with AJAX.

>>> Thanks in advance for any suggestions. Any reading material online or
>>> print? Server will be on linux. Development on Windows/Linux/Mac
>>> better?

>>
>> It should not matter that you develop on another platform than the one
>> you deploy at.

>
> As far as everything inside the WAR/EAR is concerned, this is true.
> Although if there's a lot of money depending on your app, i'd certainly
> suggest doing QA on the same platform.
>
> However, things outside the WAR/EAR may not be so portable. In my apps
> i've worked on, there is a colossal amount of what we generically term
> 'build scripts', which is the stuff that takes a fresh checkout from CVS
> on a blank machine and turns it into a running system: that's everything
> from compilation, management and implementation of configuration
> options, EAR/WAR assembly, configuration file preparation, database
> schema definition, data load, app server startup and monitoring (and
> shutdown), and post-startup configuration and activation steps. And
> running unit tests.
>
> It's possible to do much or all of that portably - ant was made to do
> this (more or less), and what you can't do in ant, you can do in java
> (perhaps by writing an ant task). The only places where you're in real
> trouble are when you're interacting with different interfaces (eg the
> start scripts for Tomcat and JBoss, which take different parameters),
> but that's just a matter of isolating that and writing implementations
> for each interface.
>
> Still, in practice what we end up doing is writing trillions of lines of
> bash script. The trouble is that ant is an utterly, utterly appalling
> language, far more verbose and fiddly than shell script, and agonising
> if you want to anything even a bit unusual. So we write shell script.
> And hey presto, while we can run on any linux machine with only minor
> tweaking (eg the xmlstarlet command-line XML processor is invoked as
> xmlstar on Debian, but xml on CentOS), and on OS X with a bit more
> tweaking (install lots of GNU utilities from MacPorts, change readlink
> to greadlink throughout, etc), you're hosed if you want to run on
> Windows. Luckily, our development landscape is almost always linux from
> development to production, with the very occasional sidestep onto OS X
> for laptops, so the pain is minimal.
>
> Conversely, if you developed on Windows, but deployed on unix, if you
> wrote your build system in batch script, you'd be stuffed. Luckily,
> batch script is so awful that you wouldn't do this; you'd even use ant
> in preference, so you'd have a better shot at being portable from the
> start.


The burden of a very complex environment is common.

But if it is managed properly it should not become a big problem.

KISS is good for the software itself. But it is even better for
the "home made tools" to support the software.

Arne

 
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Thufir
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      04-28-2010
On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 18:58:47 +0100, Tom Anderson wrote:


> It's possible to do much or all of that portably - ant was made to do
> this (more or less), and what you can't do in ant, you can do in java
> (perhaps by writing an ant task).


There are other build scripts besides ant, most notably maven. In java,
there's groovy. I've used ruby & rake, and there are a variety of java
build projects based upon ruby and rake which simplify things.

Would any of those solve that problem, I wonder?

-Thufir
 
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Tom Anderson
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      04-28-2010
On Tue, 27 Apr 2010, Arne Vajh?j wrote:

> On 27-04-2010 13:58, Tom Anderson wrote:
>> On Mon, 26 Apr 2010, Arne Vajh?j wrote:
>>
>>> On 22-04-2010 21:39, mr_wu wrote:
>>>> Can you kindly give me suggestions on using Java as the main component
>>>> in website building? I'm especially interested in using it in backend
>>>> as well as front end and incorporate hopefully AJAX.
>>>
>>> Do you want to use Java both in frontend of the server side and backend
>>> of the server side or both at client and server?
>>>
>>> The first rules out AJAX unless you plan on using GWT.

>>
>> Or LiveConnect. No school like the old school!
>>
>> https://jdk6.dev.java.net/plugin2/liveconnect/

>
> That has nothing to do with AJAX.


It connects java applets and javascript, in both directions. AJAX uses
javascript. It could be used to build a front end which used applets and
AJAX. So it has something to do with AJAX, and it's relevant to the OP's
question.

>> However, things outside the WAR/EAR may not be so portable. In my apps
>> i've worked on, there is a colossal amount of what we generically term
>> 'build scripts', which is [...]

>
> The burden of a very complex environment is common.
>
> But if it is managed properly it should not become a big problem.


I wouldn't say it's a problem. But managing it properly is itself a
significant amount of work. That's just the nature of the beast - the
complexity has to go somewhere, it can't just go away.

tom

--
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Tom Anderson
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      04-28-2010
On Wed, 28 Apr 2010, Thufir wrote:

> On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 18:58:47 +0100, Tom Anderson wrote:
>
>> It's possible to do much or all of that portably - ant was made to do
>> this (more or less), and what you can't do in ant, you can do in java
>> (perhaps by writing an ant task).

>
> There are other build scripts besides ant, most notably maven.


Maven's not an alternative to ant, AIUI, it's more of a wrapper - it does
a lot of standardised donkey work (fetching dependencies, compiling,
building JARs, running tests etc) for you, as long as you submit to its
rules for laying out packages, but if you want to do something that isn't
standardised donkey work (and i'm not certain how far that goes, but i
think things like loading databases, starting app servers etc are not
covered), you're back to writing your own ant job.

> In java, there's groovy. I've used ruby & rake, and there are a variety
> of java build projects based upon ruby and rake which simplify things.
>
> Would any of those solve that problem, I wonder?


Yes, if you're willing to use one of those. I would absolutely love to
move our build process over to groovy (and gant, which is a groovy API to
ant's tasks, which are themselves often pretty useful), but that would
involve adding a new language to the project - a language which nobody in
our office knows, and which our clients don't know (so far, at least). At
least with the bash-ant-java hybrid we have at the moment, when we hand a
system over to a client they have a hope in hell of understanding it based
on their existing knowledge.

Yes, groovy is easy to learn. But that doesn't really matter, because when
a project manager or a less-inquisitive developer sees the bullet point
that says 'build system written in groovy', they go ballistic.

That's the argument that's stopped us moving to groovy so far, anyway.
There is a faction here which does not believe it, and continues to
agitate for groovy, but so far he hasn't won out.

tom

--
IMPORTANCE MEMO: >>> WHEN YOU BUY AN N-GAGE QD <<< PLEASE, please CONTINUE
TO TALK ON THE SIDE!!$ Note: the other party will not be able to hear you,
BUT WHO REALLY CRAPS A THING, SIDETALKIN' 2009++!!!
 
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Tom Anderson
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      04-28-2010
On Tue, 27 Apr 2010, Lew wrote:

> Lew wrote:
>>> Fortunately you can use bash on Windows if you install Cygwin, which
>>> restores your portability.

>
> Tom Anderson wrote:
>> It's not just bash. It's bash and all the other unix utilities the scripts
>> use, and the existence of /tmp, the ability to ssh to another machine and
>> run commands on it, etc. It would be interesting to see if it could be
>> ported, but i'd [sic] very much prefer that someone other than me tried it!

>
> All of that is in the Cygwin suite. I've been doing it for a decade,
> including port-forwarding X-Windows over SSH, database connections,
> using "scp", whatever.


Your brain may know all that, but my gut tells me otherwise.

Okay, sounds like i should give cygwin a shot. Or rather, get one of the
contractors who has a windows laptop to give cygwin a shot.

tom

--
IMPORTANCE MEMO: >>> WHEN YOU BUY AN N-GAGE QD <<< PLEASE, please CONTINUE
TO TALK ON THE SIDE!!$ Note: the other party will not be able to hear you,
BUT WHO REALLY CRAPS A THING, SIDETALKIN' 2009++!!!
 
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mr_wu
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      05-05-2010
Thanks for all replies which are very informative.

Ideally I would like to develop on git + Ubuntu and push to a redhat
server.
But I'm currently using Netbeans on Mac to learn jee since
virtualization
on this Mac isn't acceptably fast.

My other question is what packages must be installed on linux live
server
if I am not doing most development on there? In principle I don't
need to install
jdk right? I make jar or war or ear on development box and then push
these to live server where JRE there would take care of serving pages
and app?

Learning with IDE makes these issues not very obvious. Is there any
learning trail out there
which involves only shell and on linux?
 
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Roedy Green
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      05-06-2010
On Wed, 5 May 2010 16:50:43 -0700 (PDT), mr_wu <(E-Mail Removed)>
wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said :

>My other question is what packages must be installed on linux live
>server
>if I am not doing most development on there? In principle I don't
>need to instal


You want to run your IDE/editor on a local desktop. You might consider
setting up a LAN with some old machines to do things like testing.
You will want your JDK on whatever machine you do your editing.
--
Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products
http://mindprod.com

What is the point of a surveillance camera with insufficient resolution to identify culprits?
 
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