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Proper headings

 
 
Eustace
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Posts: n/a
 
      03-28-2010
From time to time I am reworking webpages that I have made in the past,
trying to improve them both technically and otherwise. At this point,
I've been considering the use of headings. The webpage in question

https://files.nyu.edu/emf202/public/fr/limericks.html

is in Greek. It's structure is like this (I have changed here some
numbers to what I currently think they should be):

<h1>Limericks</h1>
<h6>by author</h6>

<h4>Introduction</h4>
....

<h5>Disclaimer</h5>
....

<h2>poems' section 1</h2>

<h3>POEM 1 TITLE</h3>
....
<h3>POEM 2 TITLE</h3>
....

<h2>poems' section 2</h2>

<h3>POEM 1 TITLE</h3>
....
<h3>POEM 2 TITLE</h3>
....
<h3>POEM 3 TITLE</h3>
....

Some of the titles are within tables. h1, h2, h3 (title of the page,
section of poems, title of poem) represent the basic structure of the
webpage. What I am not sure is what heading numbers the introduction,
the disclaimer, and the author's name should have. Above I have made
them h4, h5, h6, but I am not sure it's the correct way. Any ideas?

emf

--
Τα Λιμερίκια της Ομογ*νειας
https://files.nyu.edu/emf202/public/fr/limericks.html
 
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dorayme
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Posts: n/a
 
      03-28-2010
In article <homq71$8b1$(E-Mail Removed)>,
Eustace <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> From time to time I am reworking webpages that I have made in the past,
> trying to improve them both technically and otherwise. At this point,
> I've been considering the use of headings. The webpage in question
>
> https://files.nyu.edu/emf202/public/fr/limericks.html
>
> is in Greek. It's structure is like this (I have changed here some
> numbers to what I currently think they should be):
>
> <h1>Limericks</h1>
> <h6>by author</h6>


No, a heading must describe the topic *directly* under it. You
might be using h6 because its default style is small. Best not to
do this. Just think of what a heading *really means*. Style is a
separate issue and can b handles by CSS.

And read though some of

<http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/global.html#h-7.5.5>

"A heading element briefly describes the topic of the section it
introduces. Heading information may be used by user agents, for
example, to construct a table of contents for a document
automatically.

There are six levels of headings in HTML with H1 as the most
important and H6 as the least. Visual browsers usually render
more important headings in larger fonts than less important ones."

--
dorayme
 
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Jukka K. Korpela
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Posts: n/a
 
      03-28-2010
dorayme wrote:

>> <h1>Limericks</h1>
>> <h6>by author</h6>

>
> No, a heading must describe the topic *directly* under it.


No, a heading is a heading for part of the document implicitly defined by
the overall use of headings. The HTML recommendations are implicit and vague
in semantic issues like this, though they make feeble attempts at describing
proper use of headings. The little known HTML standard tries to make it
clearer, though only with extra syntax, and you need to read the User's
Guide to the standard to things described clearly:
http://www.scss.tcd.ie/misc/15445/UG.HTML#H1

To put it simply, h1 is a heading for anything that follows it, up to the
next h1 or the end of document, whichever occurs first. And h2 is a heading
for anything that follows it, up to the next h2 or h1 or end of document.

> You might be using h6 because its default style is small.


Which is an odd default setting, strangely described and perhaps even
recommended in CSS recommendations. The foolish defaults generated foolish
usage, where h6 is used just to get "fine print", and this in turn implies
that browser vendors don't change the defaults, as they think that would
"break existing documents".

This, and a few other things like the huge default size (with bolding) for
h1, imply that one should always use CSS to suggest reasonable heading
formatting, as appropriate for the document's nature and style.

Regarding the original issue, it's a good rule of thumb that it's waste of
time or worse to try to "clean up" existing pages, unless they are a)
commercially or otherwise very important, b) frequently changed or c) being
renewed regarding purpose, structure, and content, not just code "clean up".
(Item "a" could be omitted from the list, since it almost certainly implies
the need for "b" or "c".)

Assuming that "a", "b", or "c" applies to the OP's page
https://files.nyu.edu/emf202/public/fr/limericks.html
it is evident that it should have only one h1 element. The authors name
should either be made part of that element or presented outside any heading
elements, since as such, it's not a heading. (It could be made a heading if
it preceded some "about the author" section.) You could write e.g.
<h1>Heading of the page<br><small>by A. Author</small></h1>
and style the small element separately if desired.

If the page's substance content is poems, and the rest is explanations, then
you could have one section with h2 heading for the explanations and another
section with h2 for the poems, making the poem headings h3, of course.
Alternatively, and probably better (think about a table of contents
generated from headings), you could make each poem a section at the 2nd
level, with h2 heading.

The decorative dividers before and between the poems look confusing (as they
suggest a fundamental division of the page, not consistent with its
structure) and a bit pompous, but especially the texts between them, now
marked as h1, confuse the casual reader. If they relate to the division of
the page into sections, then the heading issue needs to be reconsidered; and
then it's odd that a "heading" is both preceded and followed by a major
visual divider - what is it a heading for, then?

BY THE WAY, THERE IS NO REASON TO "SHOUT" I.E. WRITE TEXT IN ALL UPPERCASE,
IN HEADINGS OR OTHERWISE. IT MAKES TEXT LESS READABLE AND LOOKS CHILDISH OR
OUTDATED. EVEN IF YOU REALLY WANT YOUR HEADINGS TO APPEAR IN ALL LOWERCASE,
WRITE THEM IN NORMAL, "MIXED" CASE IN THE ELEMENT'S CONTENT AND USE THE CSS
SETTING TEXT-TRANSFORM: UPPERCASE.

The page seems to contain W3C recommended icon links for making absurd
noises claiming the document to be "valid HTML" and "valid CSS" (see
http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/html/...tion.html#icon ), but apparently
the author never bothered testing the links. Clicking on them results (on
normal modern browsers) in

"Sorry! This document can not be checked.
No Referer header found!"

The reason here is that the page has been transferred with https, for no
good reason. Worse still, if I try to access
http://files.nyu.edu/emf202/public/fr/limericks.html
the server redirects to the https address! Of course, this is probably the
server administrators' fault, but it still has an impact on the page. (If
you don't use such foolish icon links, probably the only downside of forced
https is unnecessary overhead in traffic, i.e. the page loads unnecessarily
slow, though usually the effect is not serious. However, one day the server
admin forgets to renew their certificate for the server or mess up with it,
and then you have serious problems.)

(I'm not surprised at seeing that the "W3C CSS Validator" actually reports a
syntax error, if the page is checked by URL.)

--
Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/

 
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dorayme
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      03-28-2010
In article <EaErn.3885$(E-Mail Removed)>,
"Jukka K. Korpela" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> dorayme wrote:
>
> >> <h1>Limericks</h1>
> >> <h6>by author</h6>

> >
> > No, a heading must describe the topic *directly* under it.

>
> No, a heading is a heading for part of the document implicitly defined by
> the overall use of headings.


As I understand it, a top level heading, in a paradigm case, is
something that informs about the rest of the document, including
sub headings - "All about birds". An h2 is about all the things
under it including its sub headings - "All about Finches". An h3
is about all the things under it, including its sub headings -
"All about Blue Finches". And so on.

I had not meant by "direct" to suggest that an h1 is about only
any bits before the next sub heading. If the top general walks
by, everyone from the slightly lesser to the lowliest of potato
peelers in the kitchen must salute him and be directly smart
about it.

--
dorayme
 
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Rob W.
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Posts: n/a
 
      03-28-2010
Op 28-3-2010 10:57, dorayme schreef:

> [snipped]
> If the top general walks by,
> everyone from the slightly lesser to the lowliest of potato
> peelers in the kitchen must salute him and be directly smart
> about it.
>



That may be how they do it on Mars,
but where I live generals don't enter the kitchen
(and nobody slautes either).

--
RW




 
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dorayme
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      03-28-2010
In article <4baf23e1$0$22941$(E-Mail Removed)4all.nl>,
"Rob W." <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> Op 28-3-2010 10:57, dorayme schreef:
>
> > [snipped]
> > If the top general walks by,
> > everyone from the slightly lesser to the lowliest of potato
> > peelers in the kitchen must salute him and be directly smart
> > about it.
> >

>
>
> That may be how they do it on Mars,
> but where I live generals don't enter the kitchen
> (and nobody slautes either).


Then you better go and see the henry King classic Twelve O'Clock
High where everyone saluted Gregory Peck if he valued his life.
And further than this, you cheeky young thing - <g> - cooks are
not always in the kitchen even on earth. In fact it would be a
scandal if they were and had to **** in there.

--
dorayme
 
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Eustace
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Posts: n/a
 
      03-28-2010
On 2010-03-28 02:11 dorayme wrote:
> In article <homq71$8b1$(E-Mail Removed)>,
> Eustace <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>> From time to time I am reworking webpages that I have made in the past,
>> trying to improve them both technically and otherwise. At this point,
>> I've been considering the use of headings. The webpage in question
>>
>> https://files.nyu.edu/emf202/public/fr/limericks.html
>>
>> is in Greek. It's structure is like this (I have changed here some
>> numbers to what I currently think they should be):
>>
>> <h1>Limericks</h1>
>> <h6>by author</h6>

>
> No, a heading must describe the topic *directly* under it. You
> might be using h6 because its default style is small. Best not to
> do this. Just think of what a heading *really means*. Style is a
> separate issue and can b handles by CSS.
>
> And read though some of
>
> <http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/global.html#h-7.5.5>
>
> "A heading element briefly describes the topic of the section it
> introduces. Heading information may be used by user agents, for
> example, to construct a table of contents for a document
> automatically.
>
> There are six levels of headings in HTML with H1 as the most
> important and H6 as the least. Visual browsers usually render
> more important headings in larger fonts than less important ones."


I had added the <h6> last while wondering what I should do about it, and
knowing that I had to do something about it.

(1) An obvious alternative is:

<h1>Limericks<br>
<span>by author</span></h1>

<h2>Introduction</h2>
....

<h3>Disclaimer</h3>
....

<h2>poems' section 1</h2>

<h3>POEM 1 TITLE</h3>
....
<h3>POEM 2 TITLE</h3>
....

<h2>poems' section 2</h2>

<h3>POEM 1 TITLE</h3>
....
<h3>POEM 2 TITLE</h3>
....
<h3>POEM 3 TITLE</h3>
....


My problem with this is that the first <h2> subsection is not equivalent
to the other 2, nor is it's <h3> equivalent to the other <h3>s.

(2) The way to avoid this would be to assign:

<span>Introduction</span>
....

<span>Disclaimer</span>
....

omitting the <h2> and <h3>. The problem with this is the intro and the
disclaimer are not included in the webpage's structure.

(3) But maybe a better idea would be to enclose them within

<div class="into">
....
</div>

and *define their <h2> and <h3> separately with CSS in parallel to the
<h2> and <h3> of the main part of the webpage*, which is already
enclosed within

<div class="poems">
....
</div>

I am not sure whether the idea to have 2 sets of parallel headings
within different (and unequal) sections is OK, but it seems logical enough.

What do you think of these ideas?

Thanks,

emf

--
Τα Λιμερίκια της Ομογ*νειας
https://files.nyu.edu/emf202/public/fr/limericks.html
 
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Eustace
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Posts: n/a
 
      03-28-2010
On 2010-03-28 04:09 Jukka K. Korpela wrote:
> dorayme wrote:
>
>>> <h1>Limericks</h1>
>>> <h6>by author</h6>

>>
>> No, a heading must describe the topic *directly* under it.

>
> No, a heading is a heading for part of the document implicitly defined
> by the overall use of headings. The HTML recommendations are implicit
> and vague in semantic issues like this, though they make feeble attempts
> at describing proper use of headings. The little known HTML standard
> tries to make it clearer, though only with extra syntax, and you need to
> read the User's Guide to the standard to things described clearly:
> http://www.scss.tcd.ie/misc/15445/UG.HTML#H1
>
> To put it simply, h1 is a heading for anything that follows it, up to
> the next h1 or the end of document, whichever occurs first. And h2 is a
> heading for anything that follows it, up to the next h2 or h1 or end of
> document.
>
>> You might be using h6 because its default style is small.

>
> Which is an odd default setting, strangely described and perhaps even
> recommended in CSS recommendations. The foolish defaults generated
> foolish usage, where h6 is used just to get "fine print", and this in
> turn implies that browser vendors don't change the defaults, as they
> think that would "break existing documents".
>
> This, and a few other things like the huge default size (with bolding)
> for h1, imply that one should always use CSS to suggest reasonable
> heading formatting, as appropriate for the document's nature and style.
>
> Regarding the original issue, it's a good rule of thumb that it's waste
> of time or worse to try to "clean up" existing pages, unless they are a)
> commercially or otherwise very important, b) frequently changed or c)
> being renewed regarding purpose, structure, and content, not just code
> "clean up". (Item "a" could be omitted from the list, since it almost
> certainly implies the need for "b" or "c".)


The rules that apply to professional webmasters do not necessarily apply
to amateur ones. Since the number of my webpages is yet small, from time
to time, I review them, considering this a way to upgrade my
web-authoring skills.

> Assuming that "a", "b", or "c" applies to the OP's page
> https://files.nyu.edu/emf202/public/fr/limericks.html
> it is evident that it should have only one h1 element. The authors name
> should either be made part of that element or presented outside any
> heading elements, since as such, it's not a heading. (It could be made a
> heading if it preceded some "about the author" section.) You could write
> e.g.
> <h1>Heading of the page<br><small>by A. Author</small></h1>
> and style the small element separately if desired.
>
> If the page's substance content is poems, and the rest is explanations,
> then you could have one section with h2 heading for the explanations and
> another section with h2 for the poems, making the poem headings h3, of
> course.


Yes, this seems a good idea. See my reply to Dorayme.

Alternatively, and probably better (think about a table of
> contents generated from headings), you could make each poem a section at
> the 2nd level, with h2 heading.
>
> The decorative dividers before and between the poems look confusing (as
> they suggest a fundamental division of the page, not consistent with its
> structure) and a bit pompous, but especially the texts between them, now
> marked as h1, confuse the casual reader. If they relate to the division
> of the page into sections, then the heading issue needs to be
> reconsidered; and then it's odd that a "heading" is both preceded and
> followed by a major visual divider - what is it a heading for, then?


Most of the poems are satirical (e.g. The voyage of Ulysses - Ulysses
from Atlantic City / set sail for Crete / in a small boat with oars /
but fortunately the Coast Guard / returned him safely home.) and part of
the satire is implicitly comparing modern Greek-Americans, who not
infrequently have ancient Greek names, to their glorious ancient
ancestors, which is of course absurd. I have spent time and effort on
the decorative dividers, that form an integral part of the webpage and
contribute to its overall satirical effect on the reader, and I don't
think I have finished with them yet.

>
> BY THE WAY, THERE IS NO REASON TO "SHOUT" I.E. WRITE TEXT IN ALL
> UPPERCASE, IN HEADINGS OR OTHERWISE. IT MAKES TEXT LESS READABLE AND
> LOOKS CHILDISH OR OUTDATED. EVEN IF YOU REALLY WANT YOUR HEADINGS TO
> APPEAR IN ALL LOWERCASE, WRITE THEM IN NORMAL, "MIXED" CASE IN THE
> ELEMENT'S CONTENT AND USE THE CSS SETTING TEXT-TRANSFORM: UPPERCASE.


I mainly use uppercase for titles of poems... Anyway using
text-transform: uppercase seems a little too complicated and is not a
very good option for Greek because it transforms lowercase accented
letters to uppercase accented letters, while normally Greek uppercase
letters should not be accented. In another webpage:

https://files.nyu.edu/emf202/public/...GeneralEL.html

where I used font-variant: small-caps; I had to be careful to write the
letters without accents in the code.

> The page seems to contain W3C recommended icon links for making absurd
> noises claiming the document to be "valid HTML" and "valid CSS" (see
> http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/html/...tion.html#icon ), but
> apparently the author never bothered testing the links. Clicking on them
> results (on normal modern browsers) in
>
> "Sorry! This document can not be checked.
> No Referer header found!"


I've considered using just the W3C icons without the links to avoid
these problems, communicating at least to the visitor the fact that I
took time to test the webpage.

> The reason here is that the page has been transferred with https, for no
> good reason. Worse still, if I try to access
> http://files.nyu.edu/emf202/public/fr/limericks.html
> the server redirects to the https address! Of course, this is probably
> the server administrators' fault, but it still has an impact on the
> page. (If you don't use such foolish icon links, probably the only
> downside of forced https is unnecessary overhead in traffic, i.e. the
> page loads unnecessarily slow, though usually the effect is not serious.
> However, one day the server admin forgets to renew their certificate for
> the server or mess up with it, and then you have serious problems.)


I have complained to the server administrator about using https for the
_public_ folder of the account but to no avail. When they forget to
renew the certificate would be an excellent time to complain again even
more strongly.

> (I'm not surprised at seeing that the "W3C CSS Validator" actually
> reports a syntax error, if the page is checked by URL.)


emf

--
Τα Λιμερίκια της Ομογ*νειας
https://files.nyu.edu/emf202/public/fr/limericks.html
 
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Jukka K. Korpela
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      03-28-2010
Eustace wrote:

> On 2010-03-28 04:09 Jukka K. Korpela wrote:
>> dorayme wrote:


In future, please quote or paraphrase just the specific statements or
questions that you are commenting on. Hang around on Usenet for a while and
you'll see the point (and the high cluelessness factor of fullquoters).

>> If the page's substance content is poems, and the rest is
>> explanations, then you could have one section with h2 heading for
>> the explanations and another section with h2 for the poems, making
>> the poem headings h3, of course.

>
> Yes, this seems a good idea. See my reply to Dorayme.


I saw it and I did not see your point. You describe a logical approach, then
discard it on strange grounds:
"first <h2> subsection is not equivalent to the other 2, nor is it's <h3>
equivalent to the other <h3>s."
Why should they be "equivalent"? It suffices that they are at the same
structural level.

> Most of the poems are satirical


You explain this in detail, but you don't say how it relates to the issue.

> I have spent time and effort on
> the decorative dividers, that form an integral part of the webpage and
> contribute to its overall satirical effect on the reader, and I don't
> think I have finished with them yet.


I don't see how they would contribute to a supposed satirical effect. But if
you wish to use ancient-looking decoration, why don't you put it into the
left or right margin, where it would look like a horizontal divider?

> I mainly use uppercase for titles of poems...


AS I EXPLAINED, THAT'S A BAD IDEA.

> Anyway using
> text-transform: uppercase seems a little too complicated


There's nothing complicated in it. The complication is the desire to use
uppercase only, for a writing system that has used mixed case for a very
long time.

> and is not a
> very good option for Greek because it transforms lowercase accented
> letters to uppercase accented letters, while normally Greek uppercase
> letters should not be accented.


"Normally" as by which norm? If you think that accents should be lost in
uppercasing, you can take your case to the Unicode Consortium, which defines
the case mappings that software vendors are supposed to apply. But you would
lose that battle. Dropping accents is just bad practice. It is not part of a
cultural heritage. On the contrary, it was caused by real or assumed
technical limitations in using accents on uppercase letters. The academies
for French and Spanish languages have declared that uppercase letters shall
preserve accents, and I don't see any reason why authorities on Greek
language would not come, or would not have come, to the same conclusion.

> In another webpage:
>
> https://files.nyu.edu/emf202/public/...GeneralEL.html
>
> where I used font-variant: small-caps; I had to be careful to write
> the letters without accents in the code.


There's no reason to omit diacritic marks from small caps.

By the way, you don't get real small caps on the web. What you get is
uppercase letters in reduced size. Real small caps are different. (For
example, the height of a real small caps letter is at least approximately
the same as the height of lowercase letters. The "fake" small-caps that
browsers produce and considerably taller.)

> I've considered using just the W3C icons without the links to avoid
> these problems, communicating at least to the visitor the fact that I
> took time to test the webpage.


Why would that interest the visitor, even if it were true? (As I wrote, your
page did _not_ pass the "W3C CSS Validator" test, and you apparently ignored
the warning that the markup validator issued.) Besides, validation is not
testing.

> I have complained to the server administrator about using https for
> the _public_ folder of the account but to no avail. When they forget
> to renew the certificate would be an excellent time to complain again
> even more strongly.


It won't happen very soon. (Their certificate was recently renewed for 2
years.)

--
Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/

 
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dorayme
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      03-28-2010
In article <honsrr$thd$(E-Mail Removed)>,
Eustace <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> On 2010-03-28 02:11 dorayme wrote:
> > In article <homq71$8b1$(E-Mail Removed)>,
> > Eustace <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> >
> >> From time to time I am reworking webpages that I have made in the past,
> >> trying to improve them both technically and otherwise. At this point,
> >> I've been considering the use of headings. The webpage in question

....
> >>
> >> <h1>Limericks</h1>
> >> <h6>by author</h6>

> >
> > No, a heading must describe the topic *directly* under it. You
> > might be using h6 because its default style is small. Best not to
> > do this. Just think of what a heading *really means*. Style is a
> > separate issue and can b handles by CSS.
> >

....
>
> I had added the <h6> last while wondering what I should do about it, and
> knowing that I had to do something about it.
>


OK...

> (1) An obvious alternative is:
>
> <h1>Limericks<br>
> <span>by author</span></h1>
>


I have used this myself ... as in

<http://members.optushome.com.au/droovies/opinion/drugLaws.html>

To make it useful, style the span, perhaps to be a smaller
percentage font-size than the main size for the h1.

> <h2>Introduction</h2>
> ...
>
> <h3>Disclaimer</h3>
> ...
>

The introduction h2 is one reasonable way, I guess. You could
also just introduce things under the the h1 in a paragraph (as I
have done at the above URL. An actual "Introduction" looked a bit
fussy so I just set it not to display visually).

> <h2>poems' section 1</h2>
>
> <h3>POEM 1 TITLE</h3>
> ...
> <h3>POEM 2 TITLE</h3>
> ...
>
> <h2>poems' section 2</h2>
>
> <h3>POEM 1 TITLE</h3>
> ...
> <h3>POEM 2 TITLE</h3>
> ...
> <h3>POEM 3 TITLE</h3>
> ...
>
>
> My problem with this is that the first <h2> subsection is not equivalent
> to the other 2, nor is it's <h3> equivalent to the other <h3>s.
>


Equivalence is a tricky notion. Be careful. What it means for two
things to be the same or similar depends entirely on the pattern
being employed. And there are *no rules* to say what the correct
patterns must always be.


> (2) The way to avoid this would be to assign:
>
> <span>Introduction</span>
> ...
>
> <span>Disclaimer</span>
> ...
>
> omitting the <h2> and <h3>. The problem with this is the intro and the
> disclaimer are not included in the webpage's structure.
>


Are you sure? See my cryptic remarks above about equivalence. How
firm a grip does anyone have on what is and what is not in
general part of a web page structure?

> (3) But maybe a better idea would be to enclose them within
>
> <div class="into">
> ...
> </div>
>
> and *define their <h2> and <h3> separately with CSS in parallel to the
> <h2> and <h3> of the main part of the webpage*, which is already
> enclosed within
>
> <div class="poems">
> ...
> </div>
>
> I am not sure whether the idea to have 2 sets of parallel headings
> within different (and unequal) sections is OK, but it seems logical enough.
>
> What do you think of these ideas?
>

I think you should keep it simple and think of the h2 headings as
anything directly under the main heading and topic. What you did
first up...

I have misgivings about the disclaimer being entitled to a sub
heading under the introduction heading. Why not just have it as a
last paragraph in the introduction. Or, depending on its nature,
stick a link to it in a footer.

--
dorayme
 
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