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Piracy on a grand scale

 
 
victor
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      12-13-2009
impossible wrote:
>
> "victor" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:hg1und$690$(E-Mail Removed)-september.org...
>> impossible wrote:
>>>
>>> "victor" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>>> news:hg1m2p$arv$(E-Mail Removed)-september.org...

>> <snippity>
>>
>>>>
>>>> Its not possible for them to steal the copyright content, since they
>>>> have already been assigned copyright permission on account.
>>>
>>> No. Copyright permission was only pending, not assigned. Assignment
>>> was contingent on paying royalties. The record companies illegally
>>> took advantage of the copyright holder just as individual internet
>>> pirates do every day. Neither had permission to copy or distribute
>>> the copyrighted works
>>>
>>>> Non payment of royalties by record labels is bad debt.
>>>
>>> No, if they copied the songs without permission of the copyright
>>> holder, then they infringed on the exclusive property rights of the
>>> copyright holder. No different from any other form of thieving.
>>>
>>>> Actions for recovery of debts don't usually refer to the debtors as
>>>> thieves, and recovery is usually a civil matter, not criminal.
>>>
>>> But copyright infringement is a crime.
>>>

>>
>>
>> This case is in Canada.
>> Its a civil case, no one has been arrested and charged with a crime,
>> the state is not prosecuting anyone, the civil action is to recover debt.
>>

>
> No, the civil action is to recover damages for copyright infringement.
>
>> Michael Geist's blog post which is the sole source quoted in all the
>> breathless OMG 60 BILLION DOLLARS !!11!!! reposting really looks like
>> a beatup.
>>

>
> Who cares about the blog? Facts are facts -- the record companies stole
> from Chet Baker just as internet pirates do every day.


ROTFL How dead do you have to be ???


>
>> The pending list is apparently a legitimate arrangement between the
>> labels and the collecting societies.
>>

>
> No, the "pending list" is a list of pending requests for permission to
> copy a copyrighted work. Did the record companies ever get permission?
> No. Permission was contingent on payment of royalties, which were never
> paid.


We only have Michel Geist's blog on that.


>>
>> http://www.barrysookman.com/2009/12/...record-labels/
>>

>
> Barry Sookman disapproves of internet piracy. How about you?
>
>


I disapprove of copyright infringement, and I think one of the root
cause is unrealistic copyright conditions.
 
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victor
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Posts: n/a
 
      12-13-2009
impossible wrote:
>
> "victor" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:hg29ci$qin$(E-Mail Removed)-september.org...
>> impossible wrote:
>>>
>>> "victor" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>>> news:hg1und$690$(E-Mail Removed)-september.org...
>>>> impossible wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> "victor" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>>>>> news:hg1m2p$arv$(E-Mail Removed)-september.org...
>>>> <snippity>
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Its not possible for them to steal the copyright content, since
>>>>>> they have already been assigned copyright permission on account.
>>>>>
>>>>> No. Copyright permission was only pending, not assigned. Assignment
>>>>> was contingent on paying royalties. The record companies illegally
>>>>> took advantage of the copyright holder just as individual internet
>>>>> pirates do every day. Neither had permission to copy or distribute
>>>>> the copyrighted works
>>>>>
>>>>>> Non payment of royalties by record labels is bad debt.
>>>>>
>>>>> No, if they copied the songs without permission of the copyright
>>>>> holder, then they infringed on the exclusive property rights of the
>>>>> copyright holder. No different from any other form of thieving.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Actions for recovery of debts don't usually refer to the debtors
>>>>>> as thieves, and recovery is usually a civil matter, not criminal.
>>>>>
>>>>> But copyright infringement is a crime.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This case is in Canada.
>>>> Its a civil case, no one has been arrested and charged with a crime,
>>>> the state is not prosecuting anyone, the civil action is to recover
>>>> debt.
>>>>
>>>
>>> No, the civil action is to recover damages for copyright infringement.
>>>
>>>> Michael Geist's blog post which is the sole source quoted in all the
>>>> breathless OMG 60 BILLION DOLLARS !!11!!! reposting really looks
>>>> like a beatup.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Who cares about the blog? Facts are facts -- the record companies
>>> stole from Chet Baker just as internet pirates do every day.

>>
>> ROTFL How dead do you have to be ???
>>

>
> You seem utterly clueless about the substrance of property and property
> rights -- inlcuding rights of inheritance. Perhaps if you did some basic
> research first you could avoid embrassing yourself.
>
>>
>>>
>>>> The pending list is apparently a legitimate arrangement between the
>>>> labels and the collecting societies.
>>>>
>>>
>>> No, the "pending list" is a list of pending requests for permission
>>> to copy a copyrighted work. Did the record companies ever get
>>> permission? No. Permission was contingent on payment of royalties,
>>> which were never
>>> paid.

>>
>> We only have Michel Geist's blog on that.
>>

>
> Sorry, but the Larry D'Loserite tactic of denying all evidence doesn't
> wash here. First of all, we have a class-action lawsuit filed by unpaid
> performers like Sarah McLaughlin, Bruce Springsteen, Beyonce, and the
> estate of the late Chet Baker. This has been widely reported by
> journalists around the world. We also have detailed comments on that
> lawsuit by the noted intellectual property attorney Barry Sookman
> (referenced by you below) that explain the origins and purpose of the
> "pending list" . And soon we will have a ruling on that lawsuit by the
> Canadian courts.
>
>>
>>>>
>>>> http://www.barrysookman.com/2009/12/...record-labels/
>>>>
>>>
>>> Barry Sookman disapproves of internet piracy. How about you?
>>>
>>>

>>
>> I disapprove of copyright infringement, and I think one of the root
>> cause is unrealistic copyright conditions.

>
> Translating the weasel-speak, you approve of internet piracy. Isn't that
> right?


Yes and no.
 
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Gunnar Gren
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      12-14-2009
2009-12-13 victor <(E-Mail Removed)>:

> Yes and no.


That's a maybe?
 
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victor
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      12-14-2009
Gunnar Gren wrote:
> 2009-12-13 victor <(E-Mail Removed)>:
>
>> Yes and no.

>
> That's a maybe?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambivalence

There is a net benefit to music as culture, and some disadvantages to
music as commerce.

I'd rather that someone curious about the roots of current music had
access to the music of Hank Williams, Ray Charles, Robert Johnson etc
etc than just settling for the most visible tip of what gets the most
marketing budget this quarter.
At their 1999 peak, the major labels release 7000 of the global total of
27000 cds a year. Radio stations have an annual playlist of less than
3000 songs. The bottleneck is pretty small. Only major label releases
get airplay. The business model set up to reap the most benefit from
this has failed. That business constructed copyright law as it is now
and that too has failed, it is now failing for music as commerce, and it
has always been an impediment to music as culture.

Here's a couple of interesting links that articulate the ambivalence.

http://www.hypebot.com/hypebot/2009/...a-mindset.html

http://www.pewinternet.org/Reports/2...-Internet.aspx
http://www.pewinternet.org/Reports/2...wnloading.aspx
http://www.pewinternet.org/Reports/2...r-Napster.aspx
 
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victor
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      12-15-2009
impossible wrote:
>
> "victor" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:hg67tk$hqi$(E-Mail Removed)-september.org...
>> Gunnar Gren wrote:
>>> 2009-12-13 victor <(E-Mail Removed)>:
>>>
>>>> Yes and no.
>>>
>>> That's a maybe?

>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambivalence
>>
>> There is a net benefit to music as culture, and some disadvantages to
>> music as commerce.
>>
>> I'd rather that someone curious about the roots of current music had
>> access to the music of Hank Williams, Ray Charles, Robert Johnson etc
>> etc than just settling for the most visible tip of what gets the most
>> marketing budget this quarter.

>
> These can all be readily purchased. Or borrowed from a library. No need
> to steal.



It would be better for culture if they were available free, there is no
need for recoupment of any investment, no need to provide an income to
the artist.


>
>> At their 1999 peak, the major labels release 7000 of the global total
>> of 27000 cds a year. Radio stations have an annual playlist of less
>> than 3000 songs. The bottleneck is pretty small. Only major label
>> releases get airplay.

>
> In any major metropolitan area of the world, and at most major
> universities (wherever they happen to be located), that's simply not
> true. Stations featuring alternative playists are thriving.
>
>> The business model set up to reap the most benefit from this has
>> failed. That business constructed copyright law as it is now and that
>> too has failed, it is now failing for music as commerce, and it has
>> always been an impediment to music as culture.
>>

>
> How is the business and culture of music advanced by teen thieves?
>


For "digital natives" filesharing is part of their natural habitat, they
are amused by the moral panic over copyright, and regard the motivation
of the agents of moral indignation in the media and politics as nothing
more than greed and exploitation, to be ridiculed and ignored.
You can't beat them.
 
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Gunnar Gren
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      12-15-2009
2009-12-15 impossible <(E-Mail Removed)>:

>
> No need to steal.


You mean steel? If you don't know what's on topic don't post.

 
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Gunnar Gren
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      12-15-2009
2009-12-15 victor <(E-Mail Removed)>:
>
> For "digital natives" filesharing is part of their natural habitat,


It's the same with "analog natives" If you hear a good story you pass it on.

 
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victor
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      12-15-2009
impossible wrote:
>
> "victor" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:hg6qo2$5if$(E-Mail Removed)-september.org...
>> impossible wrote:
>>>
>>> "victor" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>>> news:hg67tk$hqi$(E-Mail Removed)-september.org...
>>>> Gunnar Gren wrote:
>>>>> 2009-12-13 victor <(E-Mail Removed)>:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes and no.
>>>>>
>>>>> That's a maybe?
>>>>
>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambivalence
>>>>
>>>> There is a net benefit to music as culture, and some disadvantages
>>>> to music as commerce.
>>>>
>>>> I'd rather that someone curious about the roots of current music had
>>>> access to the music of Hank Williams, Ray Charles, Robert Johnson
>>>> etc etc than just settling for the most visible tip of what gets the
>>>> most marketing budget this quarter.
>>>
>>> These can all be readily purchased. Or borrowed from a library. No
>>> need to steal.

>>
>>
>> It would be better for culture if they were available free, there is
>> no need for recoupment of any investment, no need to provide an income
>> to the artist.
>>

>
> That fine "culture" is called slavery.


Who is enslaved ?



>
>>
>>>
>>>> At their 1999 peak, the major labels release 7000 of the global
>>>> total of 27000 cds a year. Radio stations have an annual playlist of
>>>> less than 3000 songs. The bottleneck is pretty small. Only major
>>>> label releases get airplay.
>>>
>>> In any major metropolitan area of the world, and at most major
>>> universities (wherever they happen to be located), that's simply not
>>> true. Stations featuring alternative playists are thriving.
>>>
>>>> The business model set up to reap the most benefit from this has
>>>> failed. That business constructed copyright law as it is now and
>>>> that too has failed, it is now failing for music as commerce, and it
>>>> has always been an impediment to music as culture.
>>>>
>>>
>>> How is the business and culture of music advanced by teen thieves?
>>>

>>
>> For "digital natives" filesharing is part of their natural habitat,
>> they ....

>
> You're kidding, right?


How many kids with ipods bought all the content on them ?

>
>> are amused by the moral panic over copyright, and regard the
>> motivation of the agents of moral indignation in the media and
>> politics as nothing more than greed and exploitation, to be ridiculed
>> and ignored.
>> You can't beat them.

>
> But you can sue their parents for enabling theft of intellectual
> property. Then perhaps the parents will beat them.


Trialed and failed
 
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victor
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      12-15-2009
Gunnar Gren wrote:
> 2009-12-15 victor <(E-Mail Removed)>:
>> For "digital natives" filesharing is part of their natural habitat,

>
> It's the same with "analog natives" If you hear a good story you pass it on.
>


Sure, thats what culture is.
The way forward for the major record companies is to become curators of
the commons.
The content of the future will not fit the containers of the past, and
those containers got way more leaky when joe sixpack could rip a cd and
distribute it himself.
Their monopoly on distribution ended at the peak of their profitability,
and there are a lot of ambulance chasers, legal political and PR
lobbyists that are making money off their panic.
But they would be better off if they took the lead role in filesharing,
relicensed their catalogues as creative commons and used their
advantages in curating to sell premium services and release channels.
Google doesn't own the copyright on any of the informaton it indexes,
and it makes more than double the income of the entire record industry.
 
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