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A "terminators' club" for clp

 
 
kj
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      11-13-2009


This is "meta-question" about comp.lang.python. I apologize in
advance if it has been already discussed. Also, I don't know enough
about the underlying mechanics of comp.lang.python, so this may be
*totally unfeasible*, but how about giving a few bona fide *and
frequent* clp posters the ability to *easily* delete spam from the
comp.lang.python server?

Or it could be set up so that at least n > 1 "delete" votes and no
"keep" votes are required to get something nixed. Etc.

This seems simpler than all-out moderation.

("all-out moderation"? now, there's an oxymoron for ya!)

One possible *initial* criterion for selecting these "terminators"
would be the number of posts to clp between, say, January 2009 and
July 2009. The members of this seed set could then select new
members for the terminators' club.

Just a thought.

kynn
 
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Paul Rubin
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      11-13-2009
kj <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:
> frequent* clp posters the ability to *easily* delete spam from the
> comp.lang.python server?


Um, this is usenet; there is no comp.lang.python server. Are you
saying you want a moderated newsgroup? Hmm, maybe this group is busy
enough that there is some merit to that idea.
 
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r
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      11-14-2009
On Nov 13, 5:29*pm, kj <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> This is "meta-question" about comp.lang.python. *I apologize in
> advance if it has been already discussed. *Also, I don't know enough
> about the underlying mechanics of comp.lang.python, so this may be
> *totally unfeasible*, but how about giving a few bona fide *and
> frequent* clp posters the ability to *easily* delete spam from the
> comp.lang.python server?



How long you been hanging around here?

There are problems inherent in all moderated groups. When you give
anyone the power to delete post they can use it for good and for evil.
c.l.py like all groups has good and bad followers, spam, and trollers
like anywhere else. What you consider spam and trolling i may consider
freedom of speech although like anyone here i vehemently hate spammers
and would like to put them out of business permanently! Trolls don't
bother me so much because i just skip past their posts -- And there
are many levels of trolling.

However if you are selling something (that is *not* directly python
related) then i think we could *safely* say that you are spamming this
group. Nobody has come here to buy a knockoff Rolex's or Nike tennis
shoes at ten bucks each. If you are posting porn links then we could
*safely* say that porn is in no way applicable to this group and
delete them on that merit. I'm OK with that, but would it stop there?

If you look back through history you will find many instances of the
powerful robbing the innocent peoples of freedoms in the name of good,
or even the name of God, despicable hypocrite's!. Heck people where
murdered by nation states just because of fear and ignorance ("Salem
witch trials" ring a bell, the holocaust ring a bell?, and many many
more sad cases).

So if i had a choice between trollers, spammers, and power hungry
murderers, i'll buy the rolex and listen to x-and-lee's all day long
thank you very much!

Power is corrupting, and absolute power is absolutely corrupting!
 
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kj
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      11-14-2009

In <(E-Mail Removed)> Paul Rubin <http://(E-Mail Removed)> writes:

>kj <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:
>> frequent* clp posters the ability to *easily* delete spam from the
>> comp.lang.python server?


>Um, this is usenet; there is no comp.lang.python server. Are you
>saying you want a moderated newsgroup? Hmm, maybe this group is busy
>enough that there is some merit to that idea.


Sorry, I had a mistaken view of how usenet was implemented. But
yeah, I guess I'm thinking of a moderated newsgroup, but with a
large number of moderators working in parallel, and a very lax
acceptance policy. The goal is to filter out only the obvious
spam, and let through all the other non-spam traffic as quickly as
possible... What do I mean by "obvious spam"? Well, among the
most recent messages (that have survived my killfile policies) I
see the following subject lines:

* Top 10 US mp3 songs.....Cheers
* www.find68.com cheaper nike shoes g-satr kidrobot hoodies ed hardy star red monkey gino green global true religion ed-hardy kidrobot jeans hoodies china supplier wholesaler exporters,manufacture
* "jobs in france" "jobs in france for english people" "jobs in france for foreigners" "jobs in france for australians" "jobs in france for foreigners " "jobs in france for new zealanders" "jobs" "paris jobs" http://jobs-in-fr ance.blogspot.com/
* "germany jobs" "germany job sites" "germany job search" "jobs in germany" "german jobs" "germany jobs it" "germany jobs for foreigners" "germany jobsite" "germany jobs in english" on http://jobs-germany.blogspot.com/

Those look pretty obvious to me.

But, as I already showed, I'm out of my depth here,
so I'd better shut up.

kynn
 
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r
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      11-14-2009
On Nov 14, 4:59*am, kj <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> But, as I already showed, I'm out of my depth here,
> so I'd better shut up.


Don't give up so easy! The idea is great, what Paul is saying is that
most people who read this group use newsreaders and that has nothing
to do with google groups. These guy's have kill filters for just this
sort of thing but either way the emails are on their puters so they
have to deal with them on an individual basis. It would be nice
however to clean up the Google group version and rid it of the plagues
of spam infestations.

 
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gil_johnson
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      11-14-2009
On Nov 13, 5:29*pm, kj <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
[...]
> Or it could be set up so that at least n > 1 "delete" votes and no
> "keep" votes are required to get something nixed. *Etc.
>
> This seems simpler than all-out moderation.
>
> ("all-out moderation"? now, there's an oxymoron for ya!)
>


How about using a "rank this post" feature? Anybody could rank a post
as spam, and a sufficiently large number of negatives would quickly
draw the attention of someone with the power to kill the message. I
suppose even this is subject to abuse, allowing harassment of a
legitimate poster., but my guess is that the votes against counterfeit
Nike shoes, etc., would outnumber the most energetic "vote troll."
Gil

 
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Alf P. Steinbach
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      11-14-2009
* gil_johnson:
> On Nov 13, 5:29 pm, kj <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> [...]
>> Or it could be set up so that at least n > 1 "delete" votes and no
>> "keep" votes are required to get something nixed. Etc.
>>
>> This seems simpler than all-out moderation.
>>
>> ("all-out moderation"? now, there's an oxymoron for ya!)
>>

>
> How about using a "rank this post" feature? Anybody could rank a post
> as spam, and a sufficiently large number of negatives would quickly
> draw the attention of someone with the power to kill the message. I
> suppose even this is subject to abuse, allowing harassment of a
> legitimate poster., but my guess is that the votes against counterfeit
> Nike shoes, etc., would outnumber the most energetic "vote troll."


The problem with moderation isn't getting rid of spam and trolls etc., but
turnaround time.

In some cases trivial questions cause a flood of essentially identical trivial
responses to pile up before the mods can get at them. And then there's the
dilemma of whether to approve all that or make judgements based on /content/.
The latter leads to a very slippery slope, you really don't want the mods to do
that, plus that in some cases what might appear trivial leads to very fruitful
discussion of not-so-trivial aspects.

But it's not either/or: it's possible to have both an unmoderated group (fast
turnaround, much spam, some heated discussion) and a corresponding moderated
group (slow turnaround, no spam, far less heat, presence of more experts), e.g.
as [comp.lang.c++] and [oomp.lang.c++.moderated].


Cheers & hth.,

- Alf
 
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r
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      11-14-2009
On Nov 14, 7:28*am, gil_johnson <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> How about using a "rank this post" feature? Anybody could rank a post
> as spam, and a sufficiently large number of negatives would quickly
> draw the attention of someone with the power to kill the message. I
> suppose even this is subject to abuse, allowing harassment of a
> legitimate poster., but my guess is that the votes against counterfeit
> Nike shoes, etc., would outnumber the most energetic "vote troll."
> Gil


Actually there is a "rank this post" (gotta be careful with that
verbage!) AND a "report this post as spam". Of course it only exists
in GG's and not Usenet. I *do* know that the star system is used quite
frequently, but i doubt anyone bothers to use the "report as spam"
link since it seems have no effect whatsoever.

 
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Paul Rubin
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      11-14-2009
"Alf P. Steinbach" <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:
> The problem with moderation isn't getting rid of spam and trolls etc.,
> but turnaround time.


There is automatic moderation software that auto-approves any post
from an address that has had one or two posts manually approved.
While that's susceptible to address forgery, the typical spammer
doesn't do that.
 
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Terry Reedy
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      11-14-2009
r wrote:
> On Nov 14, 4:59 am, kj <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>> But, as I already showed, I'm out of my depth here,
>> so I'd better shut up.

>
> Don't give up so easy! The idea is great, what Paul is saying is that
> most people who read this group use newsreaders and that has nothing
> to do with google groups. These guy's have kill filters for just this
> sort of thing but either way the emails are on their puters so they
> have to deal with them on an individual basis. It would be nice
> however to clean up the Google group version and rid it of the plagues
> of spam infestations.


Anyone with a newsreader can, like me, read gmane.comp.python.general,
which mirrors python-list, which now filters out much/most of the spam
on c.l.p from G.g.

To post from g.c.p.g, one must use a real email address and respond once
to an email sent to that address.

So, the only reason to use c.l.p is if one wants to post anonymously,
like the spammers do .

Terry Jan Reedy


 
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