Black and white dynamic range problem - selective color change?

Here's an example of what I'm dealing with, if anybody is
interested:

http://drop.io/peabody

Peabody

"Peabody" <> wrote in message
news:0052a56f$0$16912$...
> Here's an example of what I'm dealing with, if anybody is
> interested:
>
> http://drop.io/peabody

If you have a tripod, taking two or three different exposures about an
f/stop apart might give you more images to play with and combine. Yes,
10-bit raw is hardly going to be better than JPEG, if at all, so I
wouldn't waste time with that.

Installing .NET should be straight-forward, just a download - a 2.7MB
starter or a 197MB full version. Hope you have a fast connection or a
friend with one. Make sure you install the correct version for Paint.NET.
Enjoy playing with the images.

Cheers,
David

David J Taylor

On Fri, 06 Nov 2009 11:41:57 -0600, Peabody <>
wrote:

>David J Taylor says...
>
> >> Well, I don't mean B&W in that sense. I mean I'm
> >> trying to take a picture of a black grand piano located
> >> in a fairly small room with white walls, and when the
> >> piano looks good, the walls are blazing, and you feel
> >> an urge to reach for sunglasses.
>
> > BTW: are you shooting RAW?
>
> > David
>
>No, sorry, I should have said. It's a Canon A590. CHDK
>will make it do raw, but I've never tried that, and I don't
>know if any of the raw processors could deal with those
>files. Anyway, it's only 10-bit as I understand.

Photoline has always opened any of the CHDK cameras' RAW files just fine.
With various interpolation algorithm options as well. If you don't use that
advanced editor then use CHDK's in-camera DNG conversion to save your RAW
file data (DNG4PS intermediate computer step no longer required). Then you
can open the files direct from the camera in more rudimentary adobe
products or other editors. 10-bit or 12-bit, depending on camera model.

More Info

Floyd L. Davidson says...

> You've got one major source of light, and hence have a
> fairly deep shadow from it (there is also very clearly a
> second source, otherwise the shadow would be absolutely
> black, which it isn't). But the walls are being
> illuminated just as much as the piano, simply because
> that source of light is far away, and thus the distance
> to the walls only slightly farther, percentage wise,
> than the distance to the piano.

> Use more lights. With soft light it makes little
> difference how far they are from different objects, the
> amount of light will be the same. With harsh point
> sources of light that are very close (just out of the
> camera's view) the piano can be nearly twice as close to
> the light as the wall is.

> And focused spotlights would also reduce illumination of
> the walls, which along with the above would
> significantly reduce the dynamic range of the scene.

> It can also make the scene more interesting too, in
> terms of tonal variations. Three or four small spot
> lights on the piano, and one or two diffused sources for
> fill and background, might make a much more interesting
> piano.

Yes, this whole project has turned out to be about lighting
much more than anything else. But the close-up shots (the
under-carriage, the bridges, the dampers, the tuning pins)
so far haven't been nearly as difficult as the shots of the
whole thing. I think that's primarily because the walls are
so close in, and so white. And of course it's easier to
maneuver the lights on the closeup stuff without having to
break out the stepladder.

I will try your suggestions. Thanks very much.

Peabody

More Info says...

> Photoline has always opened any of the CHDK cameras' RAW
> files just fine. With various interpolation algorithm
> options as well. If you don't use that advanced editor
> then use CHDK's in-camera DNG conversion to save your
> RAW file data (DNG4PS intermediate computer step no
> longer required). Then you can open the files direct
> from the camera in more rudimentary adobe products or
> other editors. 10-bit or 12-bit, depending on camera
> model.

Doesn't there need to be a specific profile of some kind for
each camera model? Or are you saying a DNG file will open
up in such an application no matter what camera it came
from?

I have a vague memory of reading somwhere that camera X
wasn't supported yet by Adobe Camera Raw, so that camera's
raw files couldn't be opened. (It might have been the LX3.)
So I assumed the processing software had to specifically
support the A590's raw format or I couldn't use it.

Peabody

Savageduck says...

> It will probably be worth your while to create a custom
> WB profile for the lighting in that room.

Thanks, Mr. Duck, but I don't know what a white balance
profile is, or how I would create it, or where I would use
it. And if the answer in any way involves Photoshop, then
it's just not within my frame of reference right now.

> Here is an A-B comparison with your image on the left;
> http://homepage.mac.com/lco/filechute/Comp-A-B.jpg

Thanks for doing that. But I think I need to either replace
the background completely in the picture, or do something
completely different with the lighting so I don't have to do
that.

Peabody

On Fri, 06 Nov 2009 16:32:14 -0600, Peabody <>
wrote:

>More Info says...
>
> > Photoline has always opened any of the CHDK cameras' RAW
> > files just fine. With various interpolation algorithm
> > options as well. If you don't use that advanced editor
> > then use CHDK's in-camera DNG conversion to save your
> > RAW file data (DNG4PS intermediate computer step no
> > longer required). Then you can open the files direct
> > from the camera in more rudimentary adobe products or
> > other editors. 10-bit or 12-bit, depending on camera
> > model.
>
>Doesn't there need to be a specific profile of some kind for
>each camera model? Or are you saying a DNG file will open
>up in such an application no matter what camera it came
>from?

DNG is a standardized RAW format that most editors can open and use.
Photoline's authors use some RAW file format basics, even being able to
open RAW formats that aren't on the market yet. (Surprisingly discovered
when I tested several new RAW formats before there was even an update to
Photoline to support those makes and models of cameras.) There is the more
common Import Digital Camera RAW option in Photoline for standard digital
photography, as well as the Import RAW Image Data option. The latter being
used to open any unconventional RAW file formats that are found only in
obscure digital imaging and science circles. Allowing you to select your
color-space options, bit-patterns (8/16-bit, big/little Endian, etc.), line
overflow lengths, and header-sizes on the RAW Image Data import dialogue.

If using their Import Digital Camera RAW reading feature, just be sure to
set the gamma for Camera RAW files in the setup options to reflect the
gamma of your workspace (for PCs this is typically 2.20.) If your RAW
filename's extension (user selectable in CHDK cameras) is then associated
with Photoline, it will open them up just fine from Explorer by
double-clicking on the RAW file, using the last settings you used in the
Import Digital Camera RAW panel. The Photoline authors are also quick to
update their software to open any new RAW formats that are unique. Rather
than waiting half a year or more, you usually get the latest RAW formats
supported in the next release of Photoline, which can sometimes be several
times a month. E.g. there have been 2 official updates in the last month.
10 official updates this year so far. Many intermediate updates posted more
often depending on importance, often not logged as official version
updates. Check installer filesize, if different it's an update.

>
>I have a vague memory of reading somwhere that camera X
>wasn't supported yet by Adobe Camera Raw, so that camera's
>raw files couldn't be opened. (It might have been the LX3.)
>So I assumed the processing software had to specifically
>support the A590's raw format or I couldn't use it.
>

Adobe's software does. They'd rather invent their own proprietary
conventions and make everyone dependent on them to wait for an update,
sometimes making their users and supporters pay to do so. Others editing
software authors do not. Though adobe will support all DNG files (available
as a RAW default from all CHDK compatible cameras), DNG is one of the few
things that adobe did somewhat correctly.

See above.

More Info

Peabody wrote:
> More Info says...
>
> > Photoline has always opened any of the CHDK cameras' RAW
> > files just fine. With various interpolation algorithm
> > options as well. If you don't use that advanced editor
> > then use CHDK's in-camera DNG conversion to save your
> > RAW file data (DNG4PS intermediate computer step no
> > longer required). Then you can open the files direct
> > from the camera in more rudimentary adobe products or
> > other editors. 10-bit or 12-bit, depending on camera
> > model.
>
> Doesn't there need to be a specific profile of some kind for
> each camera model? Or are you saying a DNG file will open
> up in such an application no matter what camera it came
> from?

The whole point of DNG is that it's a generic RAW format, so yes, any
DNG should open on any program that supports DNG.


--
W
. | ,. w , "Some people are alive only because
\|/ \|/ it is illegal to kill them." Perna condita delenda est
---^----^---------------------------------------------------------------

Bob Larter