A server log question

In message <16g0rc9wrvizv$.7orqwzs4jhxk$.>, richard wrote:
> On Wed, 04 Nov 2009 13:28:29 -0600, philo wrote:
>
> > Mitsos*** wrote:
> >> Mike Easter wrote:
> >>> Mitsos*** wrote:
> >>>> We had 4 computers in the same house between October 2006 and March 23
> >>>> 2007.
> >>>
> >>> You didn't describe whether the computers were on a local network
> >>> accessing the internet behind a router or if they were each accessing
> >>> the network independently via a dialup modem.
> >> I have a modem router? With 4 places to plugin a cable. TeleWell ADSL
> modem
> >>>
> >>>> Now comes the question: Would my ISP know what computer of those 3 was
> >>>> used to post on Usenet via a news reader?
> >>>
> >>> I can't imagine why that question would be important.
> >>
> >> I broke that computer but I only used 1-2 times during that period and
> >> didn't post during that time on Usenet.
> >> I am accused that I have been insulting messages through that broken
> >> computer so if the my ISP could know what of our computers went to
> >> Usenet and which not it would be of great help.
> >> My son didn't use Usenet. My very old computer I didn't use for Usenet.
> >>>
> >>> Do you mean, 'if the provider were subpoenaed for the provider's logs,
> >>> and the FBI obtained a warrant to search and sieze from my home and its
> >>> computers, would the FBI be able to determine and prove from the logs
> >>> and the computer forensics which computer posted to usenet?' then the
> >>> answer is certainly 'Yes'.
> >>
> >> So if you had 3 computers (my son had his, my old windows 98 and my new
> >> XP ) the police would know that it come from your XP computer and not
> >> the old win 98?
> >>>
> >>> In some other country such as Greece, I suppose that subpoena and
> >>> warrant process would be the Hellenic Police Force
> >>
> >> I live in Finland. They had no search warrant and come 3 times.
> >> Took our 3 computers and 10 months later come again and took my new
> >> computer and 8 months later come again looking for a new computer but I
> >> had non.
> >> Now I was convicted of posting via AOL IP 172 and we don't have AOL IP
> >> 172 in Finland nor did I ever had the AOL client installed.
> >> I was even in jail when the AOL poster posted and yet the worlds best
> >> alibi was of no help.
> >> The prosecutors argument was that " I could have used AOL ".
> >> The next argument was that they "found those messages " on my computer
> >> which were downloads from google group I saved to have evidence against
> >> the troll to report him to the police. Which I did together with 3 other
> >> people. He was arrested on November 30 2007 but set free and got his
> >> computers back. He lives in London.
> >> I was convicted of his postings on Usenet and even voice forensic didn't
> >> help to get me of the case. The troll recorded his voice, he is good
> >> with accents, claimed to be me and threaten to kill a person I know who
> >> reported me to the police. Finnish voice forensics said it's my voice.
> >> The troll had only a clip of 13 seconds of my voice.
> >
> >
> > Nope...can't tell by listening
> >
> > need to use voiceprints
> >
> > if your lawyer did not know that you better get another one!!!!
> >
>
> What? You've never seen the crack team led by Jethro Gibbs perform their
> magic tricks on NCIS? Hey the gal can take a highly garbled 2 second clip
> and identify the voice in seconds.

I know. That show is ****ing hilarious. Some of the computer related sleuthing
they do is so silly I cant watch it without laughing.
Incredibly lame series.


--
http://www.care2.com/click-to-donate/wolves/
Proof of Americas 3rd world status:
http://www.ramusa.org/
Cash for *who*?
http://www.bartcop.com/list-the-facts.htm
http://www.pavlovianobeisance.com/

§ñühw¤£f

§ñühw¤£f wrote:
> In message <16g0rc9wrvizv$.7orqwzs4jhxk$.>, richard wrote:
>> What? You've never seen the crack team led by Jethro Gibbs perform their
>> magic tricks on NCIS? Hey the gal can take a highly garbled 2 second clip
>> and identify the voice in seconds.
>
> I know. That show is ****ing hilarious. Some of the computer related sleuthing
> they do is so silly I cant watch it without laughing.
> Incredibly lame series.

However, the one accurate computer related bit was when they noticed
they were being hacked. They started typing quickly, and getting upset.
Jethro ended it by yanking the power cord out of the wall...lol

n0i

thund3rstruck

On Wed, 04 Nov 2009 13:35:14 -0700, richard wrote:

> Furthermore, IP's are assigned to a specific country. I seriously doubt
> that as a resident of the netherlands,

Which he isn't.

> you could even log into AOL.

Ever heard of AOL Europe?

> So
> by them claiming that you have an AOL account is totally absurd. Just
> for fun, write to AOL and ask them if they have any customers from the
> netherlands and in particular your city.

There are no Finnish cities in The Netherlands.

> I'll bet they say no.

Of course they would.



--
Elmo McElroy: If I wanted cuisine, I'd have gone to Paris
Felix DeSouza: You can still go to France. It's full of pricks. They hate
Yanks too. Do you fancy a bite, or what?
Elmo Mc Elroy: Yeah, all right.

Aardvark

Mitsos*** wrote:

> I appealed but expect to be found guilty again for
> something I didn't do based on assumptions and circumstantial
evidence.

IMO you are not being truthful here.

> So my ISP would have known if I used AOL????
> This is very important to know for me

The investigation has had access to all of your computers and the
records from your providers and connectivity.

If your defense process has access to all of that same information and
can't prevent the prosecution from proving you guilty in a court of law,
then your goose is cooked.

Your cockamamie troll defense doesn't cut any water.



--
Mike Easter

Mike Easter

Brian Cryer, ye slow-witted impudent strumpet, thy wit's as thick as a
Tewkesbury mustard, ye slavered:

> In message
> news:hcsitt$hl2$1@news:hcsitt$hl2$...
> "mitsos***" <smyrna@is_greek.org... "mitsos***" <smyrna@is_greek.org>
> wrote in message news.eterna@is_greek.org> wrote in message.

> Othe headers: if its a troll you are concerned about things to look
> for in the headers: if its a troll you are concerned about things to
> look for in things to look for in the.

> This, othe header contains "nntp-posts don't servers don't seem to in
> my current location there. some newsgroup servers record this, othe
> header contains "nntp-posting-hosting-hosts don't servers record thers
> record ths. 1. ip address - if its the public ip address), but you
> posts from my ip address - if its from my current location the public
> ip address), but you posts from my ip address), but you posts this,
> others record the public ip address), but you posts don't servers
> don't seem to in my posting-hosting-host" which records my.

> I think it right, my posts start at news.pipex.net whereas yours start
> at eternal-september.org. 2. the server looked too closely at
> eternal-september.org. 2. the "path". i've news.pipex.net whereas
> yours indicates the server looked too closely at think it indicates
> this but i think it right, my posts start at news.pipex.net whereas
> yours involved. so if i've nevers start at this but i the servers
> indicates this but.

> As to whethe headers it should be possible call, provided you have a
> reliable call, provided you have accessages call, provided you have a
> reliable call, provided you have access to whethe headers it should be
> possible to mess to mess to whethe headers it should be possible came
> from the same from the same from.

> They provide access to the headers? i've not looked. do the headers?
> i've not looked. do the headers? i've not looked.

Does that make sense to you, tardling?

--
The problem can be caused by a malfunctioning ventral statideuterium
generalising nacelle, a malfunctioning heat femtograviton cascading
capacitor, or even a stupid servopower de-energising power supply. Did
you screw the procedural motor and fragment the super-tachyon omega
pulse? You may need a new high-density scanner. Also deter the
zetaphoton gasifying arrray if necessary.

Kadaitcha Man

Jordon wrote:
> Mitsos*** wrote:
>
>> I live in Finland. They had no search warrant and come 3 times.
>> Took our 3 computers and 10 months later come again and took my new
>> computer and 8 months later come again looking for a new computer but I
>> had non.
>> Now I was convicted of posting via AOL IP 172 and we don't have AOL IP
>> 172 in Finland nor did I ever had the AOL client installed.
>> I was even in jail when the AOL poster posted and yet the worlds best
>> alibi was of no help.
>> The prosecutors argument was that " I could have used AOL ".
>> The next argument was that they "found those messages " on my computer
>> which were downloads from google group I saved to have evidence against
>> the troll to report him to the police. Which I did together with 3 other
>> people. He was arrested on November 30 2007 but set free and got his
>> computers back. He lives in London.
>> I was convicted of his postings on Usenet and even voice forensic didn't
>> help to get me of the case. The troll recorded his voice, he is good
>> with accents, claimed to be me and threaten to kill a person I know who
>> reported me to the police. Finnish voice forensics said it's my voice.
>> The troll had only a clip of 13 seconds of my voice.
>> He posted through google groups and used his domains email accounts.
>> seanie.eu and telex.co.uk Both registred under his name and yet I was
>> found guilty. I appealed but expect to be found guilty again for
>> something I didn't do based on assumptions and circumstantial evidence.
>> The last place I can go is the European Court of Human Rights and I will
>> So my ISP would have known if I used AOL????
>> This is very important to know for me
>
> Sounds like the prosecutor doesn't know his ****. The judge
> doesn't know his ****. And you can't prove your **** without
> an attorney that knows his ****.

I give them the troll on a plate. It just needs some decent police work
and the **** ends but thy will force me to write to ECHR which I did and
I have the register code already
>
> Wait wait wait. You said this person posted your voice recording
> on the usenet via google groups?

He posted the link to the audio via google groups and his google group
account was activated by a private domain registered under his name.
The cops wanted to tell that I uploaded a picture to some group which
was text only and I said no way.
da- those were
his google group accounts. All under Sean Ruttledge and I was in jail
when the following google group account posted: da-
All of his google group accounts shared the same IP address one time or
an other. 80% of the insults in those videos were directed towards me
and 20% towards a black guy. In out news group we knew this troll since
2002 and he was exposd by his real name and address over 1000 times on
Usenet. Various people reported him to the London police because he did
similar **** to them like libeling death threats etc.
It will go to the ECHR. The **** is to crazy and is touching on to many
police departments involved that it looks like a cospiracy
>
> Google doesn't do binaries.
>

Mitsos***

richard wrote:
> On Wed, 04 Nov 2009 21:21:04 +0200, Mitsos*** wrote:
>
>> Mike Easter wrote:
>>> Mitsos*** wrote:
>>>> We had 4 computers in the same house between October 2006 and March 23
>>>> 2007.
>>> You didn't describe whether the computers were on a local network
>>> accessing the internet behind a router or if they were each accessing
>>> the network independently via a dialup modem.
>> I have a modem router? With 4 places to plugin a cable. TeleWell ADSL modem
>>>> Now comes the question: Would my ISP know what computer of those 3 was
>>>> used to post on Usenet via a news reader?
>>> I can't imagine why that question would be important.
>> I broke that computer but I only used 1-2 times during that period and
>> didn't post during that time on Usenet.
>> I am accused that I have been insulting messages through that broken
>> computer so if the my ISP could know what of our computers went to
>> Usenet and which not it would be of great help.
>> My son didn't use Usenet. My very old computer I didn't use for Usenet.
>>> Do you mean, 'if the provider were subpoenaed for the provider's logs,
>>> and the FBI obtained a warrant to search and sieze from my home and its
>>> computers, would the FBI be able to determine and prove from the logs
>>> and the computer forensics which computer posted to usenet?' then the
>>> answer is certainly 'Yes'.
>> So if you had 3 computers (my son had his, my old windows 98 and my new
>> XP ) the police would know that it come from your XP computer and not
>> the old win 98?
>>> In some other country such as Greece, I suppose that subpoena and
>>> warrant process would be the Hellenic Police Force
>> I live in Finland. They had no search warrant and come 3 times.
>> Took our 3 computers and 10 months later come again and took my new
>> computer and 8 months later come again looking for a new computer but I
>> had non.
>> Now I was convicted of posting via AOL IP 172 and we don't have AOL IP
>> 172 in Finland nor did I ever had the AOL client installed.
>> I was even in jail when the AOL poster posted and yet the worlds best
>> alibi was of no help.
>> The prosecutors argument was that " I could have used AOL ".
>> The next argument was that they "found those messages " on my computer
>> which were downloads from google group I saved to have evidence against
>> the troll to report him to the police. Which I did together with 3 other
>> people. He was arrested on November 30 2007 but set free and got his
>> computers back. He lives in London.
>> I was convicted of his postings on Usenet and even voice forensic didn't
>> help to get me of the case. The troll recorded his voice, he is good
>> with accents, claimed to be me and threaten to kill a person I know who
>> reported me to the police. Finnish voice forensics said it's my voice.
>> The troll had only a clip of 13 seconds of my voice.
>> He posted through google groups and used his domains email accounts.
>> seanie.eu and telex.co.uk Both registred under his name and yet I was
>> found guilty. I appealed but expect to be found guilty again for
>> something I didn't do based on assumptions and circumstantial evidence.
>> The last place I can go is the European Court of Human Rights and I will
>>> If you mean something else, then you should state more distinctly the
>>> relative network topography of the computers in question and just
>>> exactly and precisely what you are worried about the provider
>>> determining for apparently no good reason.
>> The police never contacted the AOL server or they would have known where
>> the posts come from claiming it was a proxy. It was no proxy and even
>> proxies have to keep server logs
>>>> I know it's a bit late now but would it have shown back then that my
>>> old
>>>> Windows 98 SE was not used to post on Usenet but my Windows XP?
>>> Depending on the adversarial relationship between you and your provider
>>> or anyone else who can obtain your provider's logs and other
>>> information, your provider or some other adversary has access to more
>>> than just the server logs to research what you posted on usenet.
>> So my ISP would have known if I used AOL????
>> This is very important to know for me
>>>
>
> An interesting legal case you have for sure.
> FYI, and perhaps defense, is the fact that every single post to usenet has
> a unique identifier known as the "message ID".

User-Agent: G2/1.0
X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; AOL 9.0; Windows NT
6.0;
From the trolls message header.
What does this tell you?
I understand it to mean that he has AOL client installed with which he
can access the Internet because otherwise he cant.
I should get in touch with AOL and ask them if it's possible for a guy
who lives in Finland who has no AOL software installed to surfe the
Internet through a server that proxy server that "could" exist in the
fantasy of a racist Finnish cop
http://groups.google.fi/group/soc.cu...n&dmode=source
I was in jail when this post was posted and yet the cops claim I am
responsible for his posts when he insulted some black guy I know.
To them that you need a password to login to your google group account
before you post anything don't mean anything
That the email address used belongs to a private domain don't mean
anything. That this domain is registered under Sean Ruttledge who I make
responsible dont mean a thing
That the next gogle group account of the troll registered under
Kilfoyle@seanie which is also a domain registered under the trolls name
dont' mean anything

http://groups.google.fi/group/soc.cu...n&dmode=source

http://groups.google.fi/group/soc.cu...n&dmode=source
Different google group account but same IP address and both domains
under Sean Ruttledge and I was in jail for 11 days when the troll posted
on the 25 and 26 of March 2007
Still it's me they say.
They "found the messages on my computer" which messages posted by the
troll which I downloaded to my computer in order to have evidence to sue him
The header or source of a Usenet message looks very different from a
downloaded file then of a file in the send folder of your news reader
but this stuff is to complicate for them.
The cops understand **** and think I am some kind of hacker because they
don't understand basic stuff about Usenet and google groups.
I had an expert on my court but he was only permitted to say his opinion
about proxies. Nothing else. Nothing about how posting in google groups
work.
I use tor sometimes. Tor is changing the servers at random
Among the 2000 servers tor is using there was not ONE AOL server and
they blame me for AOL-UK LOndon IP 172
Those ****ers are mad but are the cops and the judges
>
> For this post, yours is:
> Message-ID: <hcsk72$tb3$>
> For your original post it is:
> Message-ID: <hcrolo$6a0$>
>
> With that information, anyone who knows the coding scheme can identify
> exactly where that post originated. It will prove that his posts are from
> an entirely different location than yours.
>
> You say that the police claim that a post was made through a computer that
> even't wasn't working, let alone online. Trust me, if the cops have your
> computer, they can put on it any damn thing they want.
>
> I have read of a few cases here in the USA, where the so called evidence
> was a paper log allegedly from the ISP's computer. The very knowledgable
> attorney demonstrated right before the jury exactly how any one could
> create such evidence using a computer and printer.
>
> Furthermore, IP's are assigned to a specific country. I seriously doubt
> that as a resident of the netherlands, you could even log into AOL. So by
> them claiming that you have an AOL account is totally absurd. Just for fun,
> write to AOL and ask them if they have any customers from the netherlands
> and in particular your city. I'll bet they say no.
>
> Practically any computer savvy tech will tell you that the IP of 172.x.x.x
> is an IP that is designated for internal use by YOUR computer and other
> devices, like routers. Had they said "Well your IP is 127.x.x.x.....", I'd
> have laughed my ass off royally and told them they better find out what a
> reserved IP is.
>
> Do yourself a favor and google that IP. You'll find tons of reading
> material about it.
>
> Obviously these cops know very little about computers.
>
> Good luck.
I give you the details you can check yourself,
I am a Greek who lives in Finland. Real name Dimitrios Xenos.
Been posting in the soc groups as Mitsos 95% of the time or Mhitsos and
Xenos or Dimitri in alt.support.divorce
Doing a google group search with my name ( Dimitrios Xenos ) especially
in soc.culture.greek you see the troll and what he did of which I was
accused of and found guilty ( he insulted the BF of my ex to get me in
trouble )
That I live in Finland you can see if you go back to very old messages
of my or in the divorce group.
As far as I know you need to have the AOL client installed in order to
can use AOL.
The cops talk that I used some proxy to get the AOL IP
But no other server but AOL can give you an AOL IP
I have made 2 videos about the case I will upload to Youtube soon

Mitsos***

Evan Platt wrote:
> On Wed, 4 Nov 2009 13:35:14 -0700, richard <> wrote:
>
>> Furthermore, IP's are assigned to a specific country. I seriously doubt
>> that as a resident of the netherlands, you could even log into AOL.
>
> Why not?

They are like telephone number.
but then they talk abou the "possibility" of using a proxy
Not every ISP permits you to setup a proxy
Not everybody can setup a proxy
To my knowledge AOL don't work without the AOL client software and even
in case of a proxy even the proxy has to keep a server log for up to 6
months in the UK and the cops had almost 3 years time to ask for the
server logs. The troll was not always using AOL. He used other servers
too from UK London.
Facts were not permitted on my last court. Only opinions.
And in a way that my expert could not proof to 100% that it was
impossible to use a proxy. He said very very very unlikely and he tried
a few anonymous proxies to login to his google group account but google
kicked him out.
Last time the cop used the web proxy "hide my ass ' to change the IP
address and this was then the hard evidence that I could have used a
proxy to change my IP
Like if I could change my IP I could transform it to any IP address I want?!
I could not login under the "hide my ass " proxy in to my google group
account. Google requires you to have SSL before they let you login to
your google group account
According to the law you can only be found guilty " based on evidence
and beyond any reasonable doubt".
In my case it will be found guilty on assumptions and circumstantial
evidence. The cops don't have to explain why they didn't contact any
servers and had almost 3 years time.
I have now reported the police to the police of a different town but I
am certain that cops won't go after cops. By the way the come 3 times
without a search warrant. Erased all data from my 2 USB2 flash sticks.
Keep my password booklets. Keep my fractal art work worth 40.000 Euro
Accused me later after I complained to the ombudsman about the non
existing search warrant of kiddie porn based on 3 girls with no T-shirt
A girl that was dressed and hat all her clothes on and a hat because she
had a nice small on. some 16 to 18 year old girls partly dressed some
nude. They found them among the 400.000 picture I had.
They dropped the charges but used that **** to **** on me.
I filed charges on them for lying under oath and I can proof they were
lying. The one cop "found" a message in the send folder of my news
reader 1 1/2 years after the investigation started and only 10 days
before my court. That was last year. He was claiming to have the proof
that I was "King Seanie master of all GRIK slaves wrote: "
But this "wrote" after the name shows it was a reply to that user AND
not a post by this user.
In a reply you get either this < or a blue line
They printed out the post and the blue line become a black insignificant
line giving the impression that I posted this post through my news
reader and through google groups. I knew you can only use a browser to
post through google groups and called his bluff.
He had the "proof" that I posted through google groups using my news
reader. WTF! that post doesn't even exist on Usenet
I was accused of this post
http://groups.google.fi/group/soc.cu...n&dmode=source
they "found" in my news reader but without printing the full header or
source out and you could not see the message path or message ID. Not
even who posted and to where or when
all I could see from the upper part was it was from the send folder of
my news reader and this part:

King Seanie, MASTER of all grik slaves wrote:
And this he ponted out as a proof that I was : King Seanie, MASTER of
all grik slaves

80% of the insults were against a Greek in this post ( you have to know
Greek to understand them )18% against me and 2 % against a black guy who
is suing me for the posts of that troll.
This 2% was evidence for the cops that it MUST have been me.
>
>> So by them claiming that you have an AOL account is totally absurd. Just for fun,
>> write to AOL and ask them if they have any customers from the netherlands
>> and in particular your city. I'll bet they say no.
>
> And I'll bet they'll be wrong.
>
>> Practically any computer savvy tech will tell you that the IP of 172.x.x.x
>> is an IP that is designated for internal use by YOUR computer and other
>> devices, like routers.
>
> Buzz. Wrong. It's designated for internal USE.
>
>
>> Had they said "Well your IP is 127.x.x.x.....", I'd
>> have laughed my ass off royally and told them they better find out what a
>> reserved IP is.
>>
>> Do yourself a favor and google that IP. You'll find tons of reading
>> material about it.
>
> It's called reserved IP. I know your IP is 127.0.0.1.
>
>> Obviously these cops know very little about computers.
>
> They probably know more than you.

Mitsos***

Mitsos*** wrote:

> According to the law you can only be found guilty " based on evidence
> and beyond any reasonable doubt".

Your problem is that you've been watching too much TV and playing too
many internet games with an adversary.

The prosecution has a case - you - and the evidence garnered from
providers and computer forensics - against *you*.

Your defense job is to 'deal with'/neutralize the prosecution's compiled
evidence/case against /you/.

Instead, you are playing the internet sleuth at war against some 'troll'
adversary instead of taking care of your defense.

The prosecution doesn't have a case against the troll; the prosecution
has a case against you. Forget about the troll, that doesn't help you
neutralize the evidence against you.



--
Mike Easter

Mike Easter

Mike Easter wrote:
> Mitsos*** wrote:
>
>> I appealed but expect to be found guilty again for
>> something I didn't do based on assumptions and circumstantial
> evidence.
>
> IMO you are not being truthful here.
>
>> So my ISP would have known if I used AOL????
>> This is very important to know for me
>
> The investigation has had access to all of your computers and the
> records from your providers and connectivity.
No. They never contacted any servers nor are they able to understand the
server logs. The cop can't even understand news headers
>
> If your defense process has access to all of that same information and

My lawyer knows **** about the Internet and not one word I said was
believed. Was permitted to use a Internet expert but only for one task.
To say his opinion about proxies. And he said. Very very very unlikely
that I did it. He made then some tests and could not even login to
google groups

> can't prevent the prosecution from proving you guilty in a court of law,
> then your goose is cooked.
No. ECHR. I have the register number. I have now to wait for the
decision ( this is the second court ) but I am certain to 95% that I
loose because the cop does not agree with my expert who was a ICT
engineer with experience in the field and the cop was investigating
Internet crime but had no schooling whatsoever
>
> Your cockamamie troll defense doesn't cut any water.

You assume and know very little. The right way would be to ask more
questions instead of becoming negative
http://video.google.com/videosearch?...le&emb=0&aq=f#
Here is the guy who made those videos
Click next page. He calls me moo moo. Insults me and a bit the black guy
and that "proofs" I am guilty.
I am the Grik Usenet Nazi and the one who goes "apeshit"
Those were the videos I was found guilty of by lying voice experts
The others are insulting a good friend of my and his girlfriend.
I am a nationalist. I love my country and like my name.
All those years I was on Usenet I was for human rights and democracy

http://groups.google.fi/group/soc.cu...n&dmode=source
This is the troll and I am accused to be him but only when he is
insulting the black guy. They don't care of the other posts and since he
didn't insult the black guy when I was in jail but just celebrated how
Greece lost 4 to 1 on Turkey the worlds best alibi doesen't count
the trolls names
http://groups.google.fi/group/soc.cu...n&dmode=source
here he tells who he is and tells his domains name it does not count

http://groups.google.fi/group/soc.cu...n&dmode=source

nor this one

> http://groups.google.fi/group/soc.cu...n&dmode=source

>
> http://groups.google.fi/group/soc.cu...n&dmode=source

http://groups.google.fi/group/soc.cu...n&dmode=source
And the motive of the troll because always this will be asked.
The troll is not the problem. Criminal lying cops who want to pin his
**** on me are
http://groups.google.fi/group/alt.su...b?dmode=source

Mitsos***