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Fall Back, U.S.A!

 
 
Spamm Trappe
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      11-24-2009
On Tue, 24 Nov 2009 04:14:06 -0800 (PST), ?????????????? ?????????????? wrote:
> As someone living in a country where DST is not used, I have
> never been able to understand the logic behind the practice ...


Just as you never understood the logic behind proper quoting on usenet.
 
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Wolfgang Weisselberg
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      11-25-2009
John Turco <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> My main PC (running Windows XP) did the job, itself; also, XP
> synchronizes to a U.S. government atomic clock's Web site, every Friday,
> while I'm online.


> All of my other devices needed to be adjusted, anyway, as they'd drifted
> off the mark, since DST had started, in March; most of those non-atomic
> puppies are lacking in precision, unfortunately.


That's why NTP exists and software using it can generate and
apply adjustment terms to internal computer clocks. It's even
possible to measure and counteract the drift of the hardware
realtime clocks on computer mainboards.

-Wolfgang
 
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David J Taylor
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Posts: n/a
 
      11-26-2009
"Wolfgang Weisselberg" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> John Turco <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>> My main PC (running Windows XP) did the job, itself; also, XP
>> synchronizes to a U.S. government atomic clock's Web site, every
>> Friday,
>> while I'm online.

>
>> All of my other devices needed to be adjusted, anyway, as they'd
>> drifted
>> off the mark, since DST had started, in March; most of those non-atomic
>> puppies are lacking in precision, unfortunately.

>
> That's why NTP exists and software using it can generate and
> apply adjustment terms to internal computer clocks. It's even
> possible to measure and counteract the drift of the hardware
> realtime clocks on computer mainboards.
>
> -Wolfgang


NTP for Windows => http://www.meinberg.de/english/sw/ntp.htm

Cheers,
David

 
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J. Clarke
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      11-26-2009
David J Taylor wrote:
> "Wolfgang Weisselberg" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:(E-Mail Removed)...
>> John Turco <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>
>>> My main PC (running Windows XP) did the job, itself; also, XP
>>> synchronizes to a U.S. government atomic clock's Web site, every
>>> Friday,
>>> while I'm online.

>>
>>> All of my other devices needed to be adjusted, anyway, as they'd
>>> drifted
>>> off the mark, since DST had started, in March; most of those
>>> non-atomic puppies are lacking in precision, unfortunately.

>>
>> That's why NTP exists and software using it can generate and
>> apply adjustment terms to internal computer clocks. It's even
>> possible to measure and counteract the drift of the hardware
>> realtime clocks on computer mainboards.
>>
>> -Wolfgang

>
> NTP for Windows => http://www.meinberg.de/english/sw/ntp.htm


Uh, all NT-derived versions of Windows (that's NT, Windows 2000, XP, Vista,
and Windows 7) have native NTP support--no need to tack some third party
stuff onto them.

For setting up 2K and XP, see http://tf.nist.gov/service/pdf/win2000xp.pdf.

The machine I'm on now, that's running Vista Home Premium, was using NTP
right out of the box. Note that Microsoft has their own ntp server,
time.windows.com, presumably set up so that all the millions of windows
boxen out there that come preconfigured for NTP don't bomb somebody else's
server.

>
> Cheers,
> David


 
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David J Taylor
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      11-26-2009
"J. Clarke" <> wrote in message news:(E-Mail Removed)...
[]
>> NTP for Windows => http://www.meinberg.de/english/sw/ntp.htm

>
> Uh, all NT-derived versions of Windows (that's NT, Windows 2000, XP,
> Vista,
> and Windows 7) have native NTP support--no need to tack some third party
> stuff onto them.
>
> For setting up 2K and XP, see
> http://tf.nist.gov/service/pdf/win2000xp.pdf.


Most Windows out-of-the-box do not have NTP, instead they have an SNTP
client, which by default syncs once a week to a single server in the US.
So between syncs the PC could be minutes out! NTP is a much more
sophisticated protocol than SNTP, which not only alters the clock time,
decides between multiple available servers on the basis of their
timekeeping performance, but compensates for clock rate variations as
well.

Microsoft's "NTP" does not conform to the NTP protocol, and does not
interwork with the standard NTP tools. For example, one cannot attach
reference clocks like radio or GPS sources to it.

> The machine I'm on now, that's running Vista Home Premium, was using NTP
> right out of the box. Note that Microsoft has their own ntp server,
> time.windows.com, presumably set up so that all the millions of windows
> boxen out there that come preconfigured for NTP don't bomb somebody
> else's
> server.


How well does time.windows.com work? As it doesn't respond to NTP query
commands, one cannot tell. If the timekeeping you get is good enough for
you, that's fine, but if you want accurate timekeeping - say to within
couple of seconds - Microsoft's "NTP" is simply not good enough, and we
have to be grateful to folk like those at Meinberg who have made it
possible to run a port of the standard NTP software on Windows.

Cheers,
David

 
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J. Clarke
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Posts: n/a
 
      11-26-2009
David J Taylor wrote:
> "J. Clarke" <> wrote in message news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> []
>>> NTP for Windows => http://www.meinberg.de/english/sw/ntp.htm

>>
>> Uh, all NT-derived versions of Windows (that's NT, Windows 2000, XP,
>> Vista,
>> and Windows 7) have native NTP support--no need to tack some third
>> party stuff onto them.
>>
>> For setting up 2K and XP, see
>> http://tf.nist.gov/service/pdf/win2000xp.pdf.

>
> Most Windows out-of-the-box do not have NTP, instead they have an SNTP
> client, which by default syncs once a week to a single server in the
> US. So between syncs the PC could be minutes out! NTP is a much more
> sophisticated protocol than SNTP, which not only alters the clock
> time, decides between multiple available servers on the basis of their
> timekeeping performance, but compensates for clock rate variations as
> well.
>
> Microsoft's "NTP" does not conform to the NTP protocol, and does not
> interwork with the standard NTP tools. For example, one cannot attach
> reference clocks like radio or GPS sources to it.
>
>> The machine I'm on now, that's running Vista Home Premium, was using
>> NTP right out of the box. Note that Microsoft has their own ntp
>> server, time.windows.com, presumably set up so that all the millions
>> of windows boxen out there that come preconfigured for NTP don't
>> bomb somebody else's
>> server.

>
> How well does time.windows.com work? As it doesn't respond to NTP
> query commands, one cannot tell. If the timekeeping you get is good
> enough for you, that's fine, but if you want accurate timekeeping -
> say to within couple of seconds - Microsoft's "NTP" is simply not
> good enough, and we have to be grateful to folk like those at
> Meinberg who have made it possible to run a port of the standard NTP
> software on Windows.


Why the confrontational attitude? Did Bill Gates run over your dog or
something?

 
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David J Taylor
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Posts: n/a
 
      11-26-2009
"J. Clarke" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
[]
> Why the confrontational attitude? Did Bill Gates run over your dog or
> something?


Sorry it comes across like that, it's not intended to as such. It's just
that Windows does not include NTP, at least as far as the protocol authors
understand it, and that /far/ better performance and management can be
obtained with the free Windows port of the reference implementation.

As I indicated, if you are happy with what you have, that's fine, but
please don't call it NTP because it isn't. No multiple servers, no
comparison of server quality, no reference clocks, no network management
tools etc. etc.

Cheers,
David

 
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Wolfgang Weisselberg
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Posts: n/a
 
      11-28-2009
J. Clarke <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> Why the confrontational attitude? Did Bill Gates run over your dog or
> something?


The amount of damage done by Microsoft is very hard to describe
or to understand, as everyone seems used to the flaws and regards
them as either facts of life or totally normal and expected.

It's as if the whole world was used to unsharp, washed out 4x6
prints with terrible barrel distortions --- and regarding a
beautiful 8x12 print of high quality as "too large, too sharp,
overly neon coloured, looking strange and unnatural" and so on.
And you cannot get through to these people, and those you get
through just say, "Well, it's not good, but you must learn to
live with it ..."

So when someone tells us that Microsoft does NTP when in fact it
does something incompatible, vastly inferior, with single points
of failure and no sanity checks and so on and so on and so on,
how should one react to yet another assault on sanity and
senibility? It's not like sorely tried patience is endless ...

-Wolfgang
 
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Bob Larter
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Posts: n/a
 
      12-05-2009
Wolfgang Weisselberg wrote:
> J. Clarke <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>> Why the confrontational attitude? Did Bill Gates run over your dog or
>> something?

>
> The amount of damage done by Microsoft is very hard to describe
> or to understand, as everyone seems used to the flaws and regards
> them as either facts of life or totally normal and expected.
>
> It's as if the whole world was used to unsharp, washed out 4x6
> prints with terrible barrel distortions --- and regarding a
> beautiful 8x12 print of high quality as "too large, too sharp,
> overly neon coloured, looking strange and unnatural" and so on.
> And you cannot get through to these people, and those you get
> through just say, "Well, it's not good, but you must learn to
> live with it ..."
>
> So when someone tells us that Microsoft does NTP when in fact it
> does something incompatible, vastly inferior, with single points
> of failure and no sanity checks and so on and so on and so on,
> how should one react to yet another assault on sanity and
> senibility? It's not like sorely tried patience is endless ...


Yeah, hallelugha.

--
W
. | ,. w , "Some people are alive only because
\|/ \|/ it is illegal to kill them." Perna condita delenda est
---^----^---------------------------------------------------------------
 
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John Turco
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      12-30-2009
Wolfgang Weisselberg wrote:
>
> John Turco <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
> > My main PC (running Windows XP) did the job, itself; also, XP
> > synchronizes to a U.S. government atomic clock's Web site, every Friday,
> > while I'm online.

>
> > All of my other devices needed to be adjusted, anyway, as they'd drifted
> > off the mark, since DST had started, in March; most of those non-atomic
> > puppies are lacking in precision, unfortunately.

>
> That's why NTP exists and software using it can generate and
> apply adjustment terms to internal computer clocks. It's even
> possible to measure and counteract the drift of the hardware
> realtime clocks on computer mainboards.
>
> -Wolfgang



Clarification: By "non-atomic puppies," I'd simply meant my regular clocks
and wristwatches, which all lack computer interfaces.

--
Cordially,
John Turco <(E-Mail Removed)>

Paintings Pain and Pun <http://laughatthepain.blogspot.com>
 
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