Re: Web development with Python 3.1

> I took a look a both yesterday. They are both generic text templating
> systems that seem to pretty much do the same thing. I suspect you will
> prefer Mako since it avoids duplicating Python's comtrol structures. But I
> think it worthwhile to look at both anyway since doing so will help to
> separate the concepts from the particular implementations.
>
> My take on them is this: when text mixes code that is meant to be
> interpreted and text data meant to be taken literally, some means must be
> devised to distinguish the two. In programs files, the code is left unquoted
> and the text data is quoted. In template files, the marking is reversed: the
> literal text is left unquoted and the code *is* quoted. In Mako, expressions
> are quoted with braces ({...}), single statements with '%' prefix, and
> multiple statements as well as Mako tags with <% ...>.
>

Thanks, Terry, that should save me some time.


--
Dotan Cohen

http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il

Dotan Cohen

On 2009-10-30 15:55 PM, Dotan Cohen wrote:
>>> It is clear and obvious. But it has the "template engine" duplicating
>>> a function that Python has built in. My goal is to learn reusable
>>> Python (reusable for non-web projects). My goal is not to find the
>>> quickest way to a website.
>>
>> Please correct me if I'm wrong, but you did learn HTML, CSS and SQL, didn't
>> you ? How do any of these languages relates to Python ?-)
>
> HTML and CSS yes, but just enough SQL to fake it. None of those
> languages relate to Python, each language performs a different
> function. However, the template language looks completely redundant as
> it duplicates functionality of the language that I intend to learn.

Templating languages serve a different, highly specialized purpose. They may
have similar flow constructs, but the context and specializations matter a lot.
Use the right language for the job. Sometimes the job is a weird mix of concerns
and requires a weird mix of constructs to be convenient. If you're writing web
apps, you should learn a templating language. If you're primarily concerned with
learning Python and nothing else, you should find a different kind of project.

But if you insist, you may be interested in Breve:

http://pypi.python.org/pypi/Breve/

--
Robert Kern

"I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma
that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had
an underlying truth."
-- Umberto Eco

Robert Kern

On Oct 28, 5:16*am, "Diez B. Roggisch" <de...@nospam.web.de> wrote:
> Dotan Cohen schrieb:
>
>
>
> >> While I know that to be true in the general sense, from what I've
> >> looked at Django and other frameworks it seems that the web frameworks
> >> push the coder to use templates, not letting him near the HTML.
>
> >> For instance, I was looking for a class / framework that provided a
> >> proven method of decoding cookies (setting them is no problem),
> >> decoding POST and GET variables, escaping variables for safe entry
> >> into MySQL, and other things. Django and the other frameworks seem to
> >> force the user to use templates. I just want the functions, and to
> >> print the HTML as stdout to the *browser making the request. I had to
> >> settle on PHP to do this, which admittedly is what PHP was invented to
> >> do. However, for obvious reasons, I would have prefered to code in
> >> Python. In fact, I still would.
>
> > I should probably expand on this:
>
> > How can I get an array with all the GET variables in Python?
> > How can I get an array with all the POST variables in Python?
> > How can I get an array with all the COOKIE variables in Python?
> > How can I get the request URI path (everything after
> >http://[www.?]example.com/)?
>
> > That's all I want: no templates and nothing between me and the HTML.
> > The HTTP headers I can output to stdout myself as well.
>
> Again: if you insist on doing everything yourself - then of course any
> library or framework isn't for you.
>
> But then do you deal with headers correctly? Do you respect character
> encodings? Form-encodings? Is your generated HTML valid? Are
> timestamp-formats generated according to RFCs for your cookies? Do you
> parse content negotiation headers?
>
> I think you underestimate the task it is to make a webapplication good.
> And even if not, what you will do is ... code your own webframework.
> Because there is a lot of boilerplate otherwis. If that's a
> learning-experience your after, fine.
>
> Besides, yes, you can get all these things nonetheless. You just don't
> need them most of the time.
>
> And at least pylons/TG2 lets you return whatever you want instead, as a
> string. Not via "print" though - which is simply only for CGI, and no
> other means (e.g. mod_wsgi) of python-web-programming.
>
> Diez

notmm uses Python 2.6 and will probably work just fine with Python
3000.


Cheers,

Etienne

P.S - We all don't think in the same box.

erob

On Oct 30, 7:01*pm, erob <robillard.etie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 28, 5:16*am, "Diez B. Roggisch" <de...@nospam.web.de> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Dotan Cohen schrieb:
>
> > >> While I know that to be true in the general sense, from what I've
> > >> looked at Django and other frameworks it seems that the web frameworks
> > >> push the coder to use templates, not letting him near the HTML.
>
> > >> For instance, I was looking for a class / framework that provided a
> > >> proven method of decoding cookies (setting them is no problem),
> > >> decoding POST and GET variables, escaping variables for safe entry
> > >> into MySQL, and other things. Django and the other frameworks seem to
> > >> force the user to use templates. I just want the functions, and to
> > >> print the HTML as stdout to the *browser making the request. I had to
> > >> settle on PHP to do this, which admittedly is what PHP was invented to
> > >> do. However, for obvious reasons, I would have prefered to code in
> > >> Python. In fact, I still would.
>
> > > I should probably expand on this:
>
> > > How can I get an array with all the GET variables in Python?
> > > How can I get an array with all the POST variables in Python?
> > > How can I get an array with all the COOKIE variables in Python?
> > > How can I get the request URI path (everything after
> > >http://[www.?]example.com/)?
>
> > > That's all I want: no templates and nothing between me and the HTML.
> > > The HTTP headers I can output to stdout myself as well.
>
> > Again: if you insist on doing everything yourself - then of course any
> > library or framework isn't for you.
>
> > But then do you deal with headers correctly? Do you respect character
> > encodings? Form-encodings? Is your generated HTML valid? Are
> > timestamp-formats generated according to RFCs for your cookies? Do you
> > parse content negotiation headers?
>
> > I think you underestimate the task it is to make a webapplication good.
> > And even if not, what you will do is ... code your own webframework.
> > Because there is a lot of boilerplate otherwis. If that's a
> > learning-experience your after, fine.
>
> > Besides, yes, you can get all these things nonetheless. You just don't
> > need them most of the time.
>
> > And at least pylons/TG2 lets you return whatever you want instead, as a
> > string. Not via "print" though - which is simply only for CGI, and no
> > other means (e.g. mod_wsgi) of python-web-programming.
>
> > Diez
>
> notmm uses Python 2.6 and will probably work just fine with Python
> 3000.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Etienne
>
> P.S - We all don't think in the same box.

"I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them
tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break
them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for
everything I do." -- Robert A. Heinlein

erob

>> notmm uses Python 2.6 and will probably work just fine with Python
>> 3000.
>>

The only reference to "notmm" that I could find in Google was this thread!


> "I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them
> tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break
> them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for
> everything I do." -- Robert A. Heinlein
>

Heinlein said that? It's been a long time since I've read Heinlein,
and his quotes are as vivid as his books.

--
Dotan Cohen

http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il

Dotan Cohen

With respect to to original question regarding web frameworks +
database and Python 3, all the following have been available for
Python 3 since the day Python 3.0 was released:

QP, a Web Framework
http://pypi.python.org/pypi/qp/

Durus, a Python Object Database (the "default" in qp, for user
sessions, etc)
http://pypi.python.org/pypi/Durus/

Evoque, state-of-the-art templating engine
http://pypi.python.org/pypi/evoque/
(this one is available for py3.0 since a little later, 21-jan-2009)

All the above also runs on python 2.4 (thru to python 3)

For the record, you may see the list of all pypi packages availabe for
Python 3 at:
http://pypi.python.org/pypi?:action=...show=all&c=533

m.

mario ruggier

On Oct 30, 6:23*pm, Dotan Cohen <dotanco...@gmail.com> wrote:

> The point is that I want to use only _Python_ features, not
> Django/Mako/whatever features.

Pure python has a builtin templating system -- its called %

See http://simonwillison.net/2003/Jul/28/simpleTemplates/

rustom

rustom a écrit :
> On Oct 30, 6:23 pm, Dotan Cohen <dotanco...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> The point is that I want to use only _Python_ features, not
>> Django/Mako/whatever features.
>
> Pure python has a builtin templating system -- its called %

Poor man's template... It only do variable substitutions - no branching
nor iteration (and let's not talk about macros, inclusions, filters etc).

Bruno Desthuilliers

On Nov 5, 2:23*pm, Bruno Desthuilliers <bruno.
42.desthuilli...@websiteburo.invalid> wrote:
> rustom a écrit :
>
> > On Oct 30, 6:23 pm, Dotan Cohen <dotanco...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> The point is that I want to use only _Python_ features, not
> >> Django/Mako/whatever features.
>
> > Pure python has a builtin templating system -- its called *%
>
> Poor man's template... It only do variable substitutions - no branching
> nor iteration (and let's not talk about macros, inclusions, filters etc).

I realised that that link
http://simonwillison.net/2003/Jul/28/simpleTemplates/
was written in 2003

Subsequently python has sprouted something explicitly templateish
http://docs.python.org/library/strin...mplate-strings

rustom

rustom a écrit :
> On Nov 5, 2:23 pm, Bruno Desthuilliers <bruno.
> 42.desthuilli...@websiteburo.invalid> wrote:
>> rustom a écrit :
>>
>>> On Oct 30, 6:23 pm, Dotan Cohen <dotanco...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> The point is that I want to use only _Python_ features, not
>>>> Django/Mako/whatever features.
>>> Pure python has a builtin templating system -- its called %
>> Poor man's template... It only do variable substitutions - no branching
>> nor iteration (and let's not talk about macros, inclusions, filters etc).
>
> I realised that that link
> http://simonwillison.net/2003/Jul/28/simpleTemplates/
> was written in 2003
>
> Subsequently python has sprouted something explicitly templateish
> http://docs.python.org/library/strin...mplate-strings

Still poor man's template. Just don't hope to do any realworld web
templating with this.

Bruno Desthuilliers